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Ted Rolles
Medium member
Canada
75 Posts |
 Posted - 16/09/2015 : 01:59:57
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| I've found that in my searches that the Norwegians most often use the "E" in the patronymic names, such as Olsen, Olessen, Johansen etc and the Swedish used the "O" Olson, Olafson. And for daughters in Norway was datter and Sweden was dotter at least before becoming Americanized. This is what I have seen in my limited findings but is this true naming practices? Or have I just seen an individuals writing practice? |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 03:15:39
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| That's what I've always seen also. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7792 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 03:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Rolles
I've found that in my searches that the Norwegians most often use the "E" in the patronymic names, such as Olsen, Olessen, Johansen etc and the Swedish used the "O" Olson, Olafson. And for daughters in Norway was datter and Sweden was dotter at least before becoming Americanized. This is what I have seen in my limited findings but is this true naming practices? Or have I just seen an individuals writing practice?
Like every blanket statement there will be exceptions. The following are the endings of each surname in the 1865 Norwegian census beginning with "ols" and the number of each occurrence:
86379 ols
1 olsberg
1 olsbjørnsd
80995 olsd
1 olsdad
1 olsdallatter
1 olsdat
7 olsdater
26 olsdatr
20119 olsdatter
1 olsdd
49 olsdotter
125 olsdr
232 olsdtr
1 olsdttr
1 olse
3 olsed
23492 olsen
6 olsend
2 olsendatter
1 olseng
1 olsenn
11 olsens
1 olsenssø
1 olsenstuen
1 olserg
3 olses
1 olset
1 olseter
1 olsfsd
5 olsin
1 olsld
2 olsls
1 olsoldsd
95 olson
1 olsrud
2024 olss
4 olssd
4 olssdatter
1 olssdotter
907 olssen
106 olsson
1 olsstad
221 olssøn
33 olstad
1 olstadmoen
1 olstrand
1 olstrøm
1 olsufsd
12 olsvig
4 olsviig
4 olsvik
1 olsvold
2 olsæt
1 olsø
259 olsøn
According to this, there is vast majority who spell the name Olson not with an son or sen but as Ols. |
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Ted Rolles
Medium member
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 05:44:58
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| Wow that's some interesting information! Seeing "Ols" makes me think of an Elder, Olessen=Ole's Son, Olesdatter= Ole's daughter and having Ols at the beginning or end of the last name makes me think of Ole's Elder or even Eldest son/daughter. My English is always playing tricks with this patronymic naming. However even still I do see more of the "sen" & "datter" practice so maybe the higher usage of "son" or "dotter" was nearer to the outlying borders or of a higher Danish, Swedish, Finnish population. I've not had any practice or knowledge with the Danish or Finnish but I'd think one was probably closer to Swedish and the other to Norwegian. |
Edited by - Ted Rolles on 16/09/2015 05:46:16 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 07:58:16
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Looks like the numbers strongly bear out the passing impression that we seem to see "-sen" more often than "-son" in Norway (and ditto "datter" vs ."dotter"). I wonder how much the list reflects actual personal preference (as opposed to the record keepers) and how much a single person's name varied in various records.
Interesting how frequently an abbreviation is used - at least by census record keepers. Seemingly patronymics were so nearly ubiquitous that the final "sen" or "datter" is understood and needn't be written out.
About Ted's theory about geographical influences - my guess is that may be right.
I'd toss out some of Jackie's list as not related to the sen/son datter/dotter point Ted raised. Choosing a few of the counts that suggest the overall pattern:
86, 379 Ols.
23,492 Olsen
Abt 500 Olsøn/Olssøn
95 Olson
80,995 Olsd. (plus many alternate abbreviations)
20,119 Olsdatter
49 Olsdotter
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Edited by - JaneC on 16/09/2015 08:39:21 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 09:48:50
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We have many options when it comes to last names.
Various names for grandparents that one can come across in "Bygdebooks"
Grandmother - Grandfather
Bestemor- Bestefar
Mormor- Morfar
Farmor - Farfar
Gomo - Gofa
Momo - Fafa
Mommo - Mofa
Godmoder - Godfader
Godmor - Godfar
Gomor - Gofar
Famo - Fafa
Bestemamma - Bestepappa
Beste - Besten
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 16/09/2015 10:03:00 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7792 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 13:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Looks like the numbers strongly bear out the passing impression that we seem to see "-sen" more often than "-son" in Norway (and ditto "datter" vs ."dotter"). I wonder how much the list reflects actual personal preference (as opposed to the record keepers) and how much a single person's name varied in various records.
Interesting how frequently an abbreviation is used - at least by census record keepers. Seemingly patronymics were so nearly ubiquitous that the final "sen" or "datter" is understood and needn't be written out.
About Ted's theory about geographical influences - my guess is that may be right.
I'd toss out some of Jackie's list as not related to the sen/son datter/dotter point Ted raised. Choosing a few of the counts that suggest the overall pattern:
86, 379 Ols.
23,492 Olsen
Abt 500 Olsøn/Olssøn
95 Olson
80,995 Olsd. (plus many alternate abbreviations)
20,119 Olsdatter
49 Olsdotter
Well let's be clear here. We don't have any data presented on Swedish practices at all. For instance in Iceland most end in son, or so I've been told. And we are only talking about spelling practices not naming customs. |
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Ted Rolles
Medium member
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 15:15:23
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| Customary Spelling practices of names by a region or nation is ultimately what I should have asked. It's really not of any importance other than I have based my tree on my findings and have all Norwegian ancestors written with sen and my Swedish ancestors written with son. Partly for my own distinction and party because of the data, spelling practices I'd seen. I've had a few people ask me why I have the Norwegian Family as sen so I figured I'd throw my question out to see if there was perhaps a legitimate reason to my method. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 15:15:31
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Ted - I think your spelling decision on your family tree is sound where you have no way of determining an individual's spelling preference to the contrary.
Here's another person who (like all of us here) does not cite any scholarly analysis but does share her impression that -sen is more common than -son in Norwegian records:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NORWAY/2007-01/1168705995
Here's a brief discussion on Wikipedia. It includes a survey of the top 20 Norwegian surnames; 17 of the 20 are patronyms; all of those end in -sen (with 2 of them showing the extra s, -ssen). The top 20 Swedish surnames includes 19 patronyms; all of them end with -sson.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_family_name_etymology
Here's a Wikipedia article that brashly asserts that Swedish patronyms end in -son (and gives the example Karlsson):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_name
We're talking about a trend, a pattern; of course one will find exceptions in any social pattern. |
Edited by - JaneC on 17/09/2015 15:07:33 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 18:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Rolles
I've found that in my searches that the Norwegians most often use the "E" in the patronymic names, such as Olsen, Olessen, Johansen etc and the Swedish used the "O" Olson, Olafson. And for daughters in Norway was datter and Sweden was dotter at least before becoming Americanized. This is what I have seen in my limited findings but is this true naming practices? Or have I just seen an individuals writing practice?
You are right, Ted. As a general rule, you can say that the Swedes used -son in their patronymic, while we in Norway used -sen.
But as always, there's no rule without exceptions. You will find -son in Norway also, due to different reasons; dialects, spelling errors etc. Some areas of Norway, like Sogn og Fjordane county, have a higher usage of the -son patronymic.
I assume the usage of -sen compared to -son in Norway is around 95% - 99%. |
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Ted Rolles
Medium member
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 18:22:26
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| I guess without any particular right or wrong scenario it is enough probability for me that I will continue my current practice of separating the Norwegian vs Swedish spelling of names. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2015 : 21:53:57
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It's the same today. If I met a person named Olsson here in Norway, I would assume he was Swedish. And in 95% of my assumptions I would be right. If he would have spelled it Olesen, I would think he was Danish... |
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NancyC
Medium member
Norway
199 Posts |
Posted - 13/10/2015 : 23:19:48
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This thread is a very confusing discussion of Scandinavian surnames, and there is unfortunately a lot of misinformation. This is not the place to write at length on this subject, but it might be helpful to some people using this forum to comment on a few things. Most of you who are interested in genealogy will be using the Norwegian censuses from 1801 and 1865. At this time, the written language in Norway was Danish, due to the fact that Norway had been under Danish rule. The Danish form of a patronymic is composed of the name of the father (or rarely the mother, then termed metronymic) plus -sen for a boy and -sdatter for a girl. The list provided in the post above of spelling variations found in the 1865 census reflects the use in official sources of Olsen and Olsdatter as the most frequent and "normal" patronymic at that time. Ol- is a shortened form of Olav/Olaf, and is today more common in a surname than Olav-/Olaf-. Olesen uses the Danish form of Olav (Ole) plus -sen. The list above also shows that abbreviations of various types were used by the census takers, as well as a few spelling variations, but many forms that are not forms of Olsen/Olsdatter have been included here, thus clouding the issue. During the mid-1800s Ivar Aasen was systemizing the New Norse language, which is one of the two official Norwegian languages today. In New Norse the patronymics are Ols(s)on and Olsdotter. These forms are based on the Old Norse forms and those forms used in rural Norway. Some census takers may have consciously used the New Norse forms, or they may have tried to approximate the pronunciation of the people being listed. In any case, it was not a question of preference on the part of the individual. People did not have the knowledge of spelling conventions to make that kind of choices. Today, if you want to reflect a conscious preference in the spelling of your name, you may choose the Dano-Norwegian -sen /-datter or the New Norse forms -son/-dotter. But most people use the form that has been handed down in the family, so the Danish forms are more common in Norway today. The rule in Old Norse was to write the name of the father, add a possessive -s to it, then add -son or -dottir to that, thus you get Olaf-s-son or Olaf-s-dottir. This is still the way patronymics are formed in Iceland. Icelandic children are given a true patronymic based on the name of the father, and the patronymic will change for each new generation: Magnús Gunnarsson's children would use Magnússon or Magnúsdottir - Örn Magnússon and Kristín Magnúsdottir. This was originally the custom in Norway, Denmark and Sweden - and the point of using a patronymic, to identify the parent of Olav, for example. Norway had a system of true patronymics until the Name Law of 1923 required families to adopt a set surname that was passed down from parents to children. People in towns often chose to use the patronymic of the father. But people who lived on a farm almost always chose the name of their farm: Berg, Sveen, Helland, etc. In modern usage, Danish and Norwegian patronymics have mostly lost the possessive -s that was attached to the name before adding -sen or- son, but Swedish has retained it: Olsson. However, the -s has been retained in the female forms: Olsdatter/Olsdotter. Due to these linguistic features, certain forms will be more common in one or the other of the Scandinavian countries, but you will often find a number of bearers of other forms in each country, mainly because Scandinavians have migrated to a neighboring country or intermarried. Here is a sample list of bearers of various forms of Olsen in 2015. (I previewed this post to see how the list would look, and unfortunately, it gets pressed together. Hope the numbers can still be read!)
Form Norway Denmark Sweden
Olsen 49,784 48,624 2889
Olson 146 99 651
Olsson 1289 2087 105,225
Olesen 250 22,705 437
Olavsen 126 0 0
Olafsen 1584 57 41
Olafsson 197 126 58
Those who would like to learn more about Scandinavian names, both given and surnames, might want to take a look at my book, Handbook of Scandinavian Names, University of Wisconsin Press, 2010 http://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/4830.htm |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 14/10/2015 : 01:27:55
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Hi Nancy, I know you intend to clear up and correct misinformation in this thread, but ironically instead the thread seems to have drawn you into its vortex of confusion. I have no clue how what you are saying contradicts the advice to Ted (yes, he can style Norwegian patronyms on his tree as -sen and -datter). Instead you seem to affirm that. It may be I'm dense, but that's who you're talking to (pause here to collect a little audience awareness). I will reread what you've written, humming "Which of these things is not like the others" - from Sesame Street I think - seeking the Right information that corrects the Wrong information.
In any case, the thread is a snarl that cries out for heavy editing, to be sure. I'm raising my hand to plead guilty as charged for my part.
Let's delete the whole thing. |
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NancyC
Medium member
Norway
199 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2015 : 23:44:43
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Ted Rolles' conclusion is fine, but I could not see how he would understand why the patronymics have various forms from the information in this thread. I was trying to provide some perspective on naming practices. Norway Heritage has an article on Norwegian names, but neither this article nor others of its type give comparisons of name forms in Norwegian, Danish and Swedish, as well as Icelandic, which some people might also find useful. Iceland is the only Scandinavian country that has retained the original custom of giving children a patronymic. The Icelandic patronymic system is the closest to the one that was used in Norway during the Viking Age and onward until the Name Law of 1923 required people to take a hereditary surname.
The spelling of the suffixes for "son" and "daughter" that are added to the name of the father are not determined by some random practice, but rather related to the words for "son" and "daughter" in each of the languages. I did not include an explaination as to why the suffix for "son" in Danish and Norwegian is written -sen, since this is rather complicated. The main point for someone doing genealogy would be that Norwegian records from the 1800s are written in Danish, and thus the forms of these suffixes will be the ones used in Danish. But Norwegians did not speak Danish, so that some writers tried to spell names more like they were pronounced in Norwegian, or use the New Norse forms newly systemized.
Many people using this website and who have Norwegian ancestry also run into ancestors from Sweden, so I thought it would be useful to compare the patronymics in these countries. Unlike Norway, Sweden has been an independent country for a long time, and Swedish patronymics have retained the Swedish forms. Norway was also under Sweden for 90 years, but the Swedish language was never used by officials recording names in church records and censuses. Forms that might look Swedish in the 1865 census, for example, usually are not.
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2015 : 00:55:52
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Ah! So you added information, rather than rooting out misinformation. Now that, I understand.
The various posts, taken together as a conversation, are confusing and have a bit of a "Who's on first?" quality. If we don't delete the thread, at least we can ask the forbearance of future readers, to interpret the underlying (intended) meanings.
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Naming Practices
