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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
 Posted - 15/10/2015 : 20:30:54
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Only a very quick comment. Karen emigrated and died in Pennington county, Minnesota in 1911, according to this tree. It gives her dob as 29 Sept. 1835. Maybe her birth date is given in the church record of her death. Her death record should be available at the Minnesota Historical Society by mail if not online. It should state her father's name.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=marisabenson&id=I14448
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Edited by - JaneC on 15/10/2015 20:34:59 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7776 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2015 : 21:03:44
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Karen in 1910, born about 1836 came to US abt 1881:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2GG-DK8
Peter Englestad Head M 52 Norway
Matilda Englestad Wife F 46 Norway
Anna Englestad Daughter F 23 Minnesota
Axel Englestad Son M 21 Minnesota
Paul Englestad Son M 17 Minnesota
Mons Englestad Son M 15 Minnesota
Walberg Englestad Daughter F 14 Minnesota
Lars Englestad Son M 12 Minnesota
Ola Englestad Son M 10 Minnesota
Christian Englestad Son M 7 Minnesota
Melvin Englestad Son M 5 Minnesota
Mikkel L Kjos Boarder M 42 Norway
Lars M Kjos Father-in-law M 70 Norway
Karen Engestad Mother F 74 Norway
"United States Census, 1910," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2GG-DK8 : accessed 15 October 2015), Karen Engestad in household of Peter Englestad, Rocksbury, Pennington, Minnesota, United States; citing enumeration district (ED) 241, sheet 4B, family 61, NARA microfilm publication T624 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.); FHL microfilm 1,374,723. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 15/10/2015 21:05:46 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2015 : 23:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Only a very quick comment. Karen emigrated and died in Pennington county, Minnesota in 1911, according to this tree. It gives her dob as 29 Sept. 1835. Maybe her birth date is given in the church record of her death. Her death record should be available at the Minnesota Historical Society by mail if not online. It should state her father's name.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=marisabenson&id=I14448
Peder Evensen b. Dec. 8. 1857 on farm Suderud bapt. Jan. 10. 1858.
Parents; Inderste Even Paulsen and Karen Larsdatter Suderud #9
Inderste means renter/innermost on Suderud.
Kåre |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2015 : 01:11:58
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Is this Kari a candidate? I can't read it
NO - thanks Einar
Hedmark fylke, Vang, Ministerialbok nr. 9 (1826-1841), Fødte og døpte 1835, side 118.
#169
The following Find a Grave memorial is designated by an Ancestry.com family tree to be this same Karen:
Karen S. Paulson, died 8 Nov 1911
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=43785510&ref=acom
1900 US Census
Rocksbury, Red Lake, Minnesota
E?? Eugestad 70 b Dec 1829 Norway, married 43 years, to USA 1871, farmer
Karen Eugestad 64 b Sept 1835 Norway, married 43 years, to USA 1881, 6 children 5 living
[As transcribed on Ancestry.com The original handwritten document has him emigrating 1871, her in 1881, as transcribed]
In 1905 Karen is with the group that Jackie posted for 1910.
1905 Minnesota State Census
Red Lake, Rocksbury, Minnesota
Karen Paulson, age 69 b about 1836 Norway
listed below
Peter Engelstad
Mathilde
Louisa
Anna
Axel
Paul
Mona
Walborg
Lars
Ole
Christian
Melvin
Lars Kjos 70
Mikkel Kjos 37
Ludvig Moen 19
1865 Norway Census (previously posted)
Vang prestegjeld, Hamar kjøpstad
Even Paulsen 36 born in Ringsaker, Huusf g Skrædderarbeider
Karen Larsdatter 31, born in Vang, Kone g
Peder Evensen 8 Vang Søn ug
Inge Evensdatter 7 Vang Dater ug
Lise Evensdatter 5 Vang Dater ug
Stina Evensdatter 1 Hamar Dater ug |
Edited by - JaneC on 16/10/2015 15:29:51 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2015 : 02:03:44
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Having trouble reading the churchbook. Here's an Ancestry find - a candidate to be Karen's father.
Norway Baptisms
Name: Lars Mikkelsen
Baptism Date: 18 nov 1804
Baptism Place: , Furnes, Hedmark, Norway
Father: Michel Larssen
Mother: Gunor_ Olsdr
FHL Film Number: 124477
An interesting marriage:
Name: Lars Mikkelsen
Age: 31 years
Gender: Male
Birth Date: Ca.1806
Marriage Date: 10 apr 1837
Marriage Place: Vang, Hedmark, Norway
Spouse: Agnethe Pedersdr
Spouse's Age: 22 years
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Birth Date: Ca.1815 |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2015 : 14:43:29
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quote:
Is this Kari a candidate? I can't read it
Hedmark fylke, Vang, Ministerialbok nr. 9 (1826-1841), Fødte og døpte 1835, side 118.
Birth Oct 6, bapt. Oct 25 1835, parents Axel Christophersen and Agnethe Mikkelsdatter, Stortugberg.
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Einar |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2015 : 15:46:41
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quote:
Originally posted by cherylhouse
I have a wondering question. Above it mentions that Karen Larsdatter's fathers name is Lars Larsen from her birth record and Lars Mikelsen from her wedding record. Is this the same person? Thanks so much, Cheryl
Thanks for the boost Einar.
Hi Cheryl, this question above is critical and needs to be answered. You can help by explaining what is the source of your information that the name of the father of your Karen was Lars Larsen? We don't have any evidence here in the thread that that was the case. |
Edited by - JaneC on 18/10/2015 04:46:42 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7776 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2015 : 02:51:35
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The two original marriage records (excluding the transcription) reference Karen's vaccination record. The father of children vaccinated is usually named in that record. One of the marriage records give the date of Karen's vaccination as 8 Oct 1836.
Here is the first page of the Vang vaccinations of 1836 given by someone whose last name is Larsen.
Kildeinformasjon: Hedmark fylke, Vang, Ministerialbok nr. 9 (1826-1841), Vaksinerte 1836, side 510.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9060&idx_id=9060&uid=ny&idx_side=-457
There are at least 2 Karen daughter of Lars but the father's patronymic is not given, #44 and #82.
Then the vaccinations given by Georgine Knuds in1836. #106 is Karen daughter of Lars:
Kildeinformasjon: Hedmark fylke, Vang, Ministerialbok nr. 9 (1826-1841), Vaksinerte 1836, side 513.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9060&idx_id=9060&uid=ny&idx_side=-460
10 Oct 1836 Larseb
#44 Karen 3/4 year old, Lars farm is Maugrud Mangstad?
18 Oct 1836 Larsen
#82 Karen 1/4 year old, Lars farm is Agerseie
3rd (8th?) Oct 1836 Georgene
#106 Karen 2 years old, Lars farm is Ager odegaard (?)
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Edited by - jkmarler on 17/10/2015 04:08:12 |
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cherylhouse
Starting member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 02:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
She was born on Furnes sub parish in Vang on farm Stokseth Ødegaard, bapt. Karn Oct. 26 in Furnes church, see right page #73
Parents; Lars Larsen and Inge Halvorsdatter
Karens mother widow Inge Halvorsdatter 72, "Føderraskone" (former owner of Suderud) 1865
Kåre
This post that I received from you seems to say that the parents of Karn were Lars Larsen and Inge Halvorsdatter.
Perhaps I am not reading it correctly. Cheryl
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cherylhouse
Starting member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 03:27:44
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| I have a copy of the death certificate of Karen which I received from the Minnesota Historical Society. It is from Pennington County, Rockbury Township. Any information on it is subject to how much the informant actually knew and how well it is recorded. The informant is Mrs. P. Engelstad (I believe Peder Engelstad's wife Mathilde). The full name of Karen is listed as Caroline Engelstad. It is impossible to read the complete birth date. It says Sept. as the birth month and the rest of the birthdate is not legible. The death date is November 8, 1911. She is a widow. She has housewife listed as her occupation. Her birthplace is Norway and her father's name is Lars. He was born in Norway. The maiden name of her mother is listed as Enger Larsdr and she was also born in Norway. This death date and location is confirmed in a family historical volume titled Peder and Mathilde. It also states that Karen was the first to be buried in the plot that was purchased at Greenwood Cemetery in Thief River Falls, MN. I have visited her gravesite. This book also states that Karen Suderud lived on an "80 acre Odegaarden farm in Vang, Norway part of the Hedemarken area." She married Even Pohlsen and they lived on the Odegaarden farm when their first son Peder was born. They then moved to Ostre Kartomten (spelling?) in Vang where Inge was born. Then they moved to the Engestad farm (this is the farm after which Even took the name Engestad) where Lise was born. They moved to Hamar where Even could make more money in his tailoring profession and Sina was born here. They they moved to Dolstuen at Sveen in Veldre, Norway living in 2 rooms of a tenant building and Olaf and Hans were born here. Then in 1871 Even sailed to the USA settling in Fargo, North Dakota. He sent for Karen in 1881 sending money for daughter Sina and son Hans as well. The book lists Karen's father as Lars Suderud and her mother as Inge. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 03:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by cherylhouse
My second great grandmother was born September 30, 1834, in Hedmark, Norway. Her father, Lars Larsen, was 37 and her mother, Inge Halvorsdatter, was 41. Her last name becomes trickier as some have her as Larsdatter but others refer to her as Karen Suderud. Perhaps this is a farm name. I have seen from your records that she married Even Pohlsen December 2, 1857, in Hedmark, Norway, when she was 23 years old. Information relating to her birth, her parents and grandparents would be wonderful. Thank you so much for your help.
Hi Cheryl, Thanks for the additional information. I'll try to explain the situation.
In the beginning, you gave the above info. The forum found and posted records to match the information you gave. They simply found what you described.
Quite often or most often the starting point for a search is at a secure point. We begin with proven facts and work from there to learn more. The forum took it on faith that the beginning facts you stated were secure.
You don't say where you got the opening facts, but a guess is someone out there found the posted birth record and accepted it as Karen for reasons we don't know. A further guess is that you then found this person's reference to that birth record. Otherwise, you couldn't have described it so perfectly. The death record you cite didn't lead you to state the facts you stated.
The death certificate for Karen apparently names her mother as Inge Larsdatter, not Halvorsdatter.
The death certificate does not tell the patronymic name for Lars (Larsen, Mikkelsen, or others). It also does not state his farm name, only his first name Lars, according to what you've just written. Maybe you accidentally omitted his patronym or farm name?
The book calls Lars by a farm name, Suderud. More than one Lars could live there. Also, a person can have more than one farm name in a lifetime. The farm name changes when he/she moves; Lars's patronym is a more certain, lifelong name. Also another caution about "Lars Suderud" in the book is the author might just assume Lars was "Suderud" simply because Karen used Suderud. We don't know where the book author came up with "Lars Suderud." Karen could live at Suderud and her father never did and never used that name.
So we still cannot feel comfortable that Lars Larsen and Inge Halvorsdatter would be Karen's parents.
In addition, the candidate baby is not named Caroline.
Good work getting that death certificate. That is extremely helpful - it doesn't solve the mystery, but it tells us where we're at.
And yes, agreed about possible errors in the death record. So far we haven't got this figured out, and one keeps an open mind about possible errors meanwhile.
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Edited by - JaneC on 19/10/2015 14:55:17 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7776 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 08:35:16
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Here are Even P Engestad's homestead records:
Image Accession NamesSorted Ascending Date Doc # State Meridian Twp - Rng Aliquots Sec. # County
View Patent Image
cash sale 40 acres:
MN1850__.490 PatenteeENGESTAD, EVEN P 5/27/1901 6564 MN 5th PM 153N - 043W NE¼NE¼ 14 Pennington
original homestead 80 acres
NDMTAA 088566 PatenteeENGESTAD, EVEN P 9/15/1884 1447 ND 5th PM 146N - 051W SW¼NE¼ 34 Traill
146N - 051W NW¼SE¼ 34 Traill
Here is the family in the 1885 Dakota Territorial census:
13-043-05 Engstad, Even P. 65 Head Farmer Norway Traill
13-043-06 Engstad, Karen 49 Wife Norway Traill
13-043-07 Engstad, Lizzie 23 Daughter Norway Traill
13-043-08 Engstad, Hans 15 Son Norway Traill
13-043-09 Engstad, Lena 21 Daughter Norway Traill
Naturalization record 2nd papers:
Engerstad Even P Norway 2nd July 13, 1883 Cass F-20 194
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Edited by - jkmarler on 19/10/2015 08:54:22 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 13:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by eibache
Even and Karen in 1865.
When their son Peder was born they were living at Suderud, see #9.
Here is the proposed birth record for your Karen's son Peder. Does this match the birth date mentioned in USA for Peder? Do you accept, based on your research, that it is correct? The record says Even and Karen were living on Suderud when Peder was born. This record contradicts what your book says about them living at Odegaard when Peder was born.
If the book author told his or her sources for information, that's helpful. Maybe there are footnotes or endnotes explaining the sources. It is somewhat helpful to know the sources, in untangling the snarl. It could be the book author is repeating a family story, a family Bible record, a diary entry, an obit - some documentation we haven't seen. Regardless, the church record still says Peder was born on Suderud.
The reason for posting USA information is to form as complete a picture as possible for Even and Karen. That way, maybe we'll find clues that help find Karen's parents. As an example, son Peder married Mathilde Larsdatter Kjøs, is that correct? She was the informant on Karen's US death record. I forget, did they marry in Norway? In any case, in Norway, Mathilde and her family lived near Karen, Even, and son Peder. This doesn't tell who Karen's parents were, but knowing this does tell us the informant on Karen's death record - Mathilde - was knowledgeable about Norwegian naming customs. Sometimes we see mistakes on an American death record because the descendant-informant is confused about Norwegian names. That would not be the case here.
That's just one example of why the forum broadens the search in a case like this.
The 1865 census for Even and Karen seems to fit the book description of living in the town of Hamar. |
Edited by - JaneC on 19/10/2015 15:11:17 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 15:30:17
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Inge's birth #31:
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20051003010466.jpg
The residence for Karen and Even corresponds with what the book says.
I have trouble reading the old script, but I think a Lars Larsen Suderud is baptism godparent for both Peder and Inge. |
Edited by - JaneC on 19/10/2015 15:54:39 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2015 : 15:43:55
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Tailor Even Paulsen Sveeie leaving Ringsaker, dest. Sioux City 1871 on ship Hero
Stockseth Ødegaarden, Østre Kartomten, Engestad, and Sveen, all names are correct spelled.
Leaving Sveeie 1871, Sveeie was a sub farm under Sveen
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 19/10/2015 19:11:45 |
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Information on Karen Suderud
