Dialects and Slang
auroraI found myself talking to natives of an area south of Trondheim and they confirmed that the name Skutese means "fleet" or "many ships" but that is a local slang , particular of that area. They told me that in Norway there are lots of dialects and slang variations that, sometimes, people from the south can't understand the language from the north unless it's Nynorsk, Bokmal or English. Is it true? Because if so the search narrows to one particular area. Thank You Aurora
BorgeWhat area was that? I actually live not very far from Trondheim, and I have never heard that slang. If you provide more info on that area I will check it out, I also know of a man who is a professor of dialects in Norway, and could ask him. Børge Solem
auroraI don't know the name of the place but I know it is an island, they never specified it to me but I can let you know, if I meet them again I will ask them. As for the professor of dialects, it would be really interesting if he could confirm that such a dialect exists because that would mean that my name comes directly from there. Thank You Borge Aurora
thelebrityYes there is a conglomerate of dialects in Norway, but if you are a norwegian you will have to be very ignorant or have a bad hearing not to be able to understand all of these dialects. It is however true that you can pinpoint where people come from by listening to their dialect. If they haven't been moving around it's possible to locate where they come from very accurate. People who aren't separated by more than a island, fjord or an valley will often have slightly different dialects that reveals their home place. Per Helge Seglsten
auroraUnfortunately, I can't speak Norwegian because I was born in Italy and my family has considered themselves Italians since the 1820, so I really don't know if before then they spoke this language. Besides, they told me it was slang (not a dialect), so if you can tell so accurately, thelebrity, you should know exactly where in Norway they speak this slang.
thelebrityI never ment to say you were ignorant. But I am not afraid to stat that a norwegian claiming he doesn't understand what another norwegian is saying speaking his dialect, has to be ignorant. I knew all along you weren't norwegian and of course dpn't expect you to understand the language if you haven't studied it. Slang and dialect is as you point out not the same. And when I say it is possible to pin point where a norwegian is from by listening to his dialect it doesn't mean every norwegian knows how to do that. Me, like most norwegians, will only be able to decide which fylke a person is from. In the end what I tried to say was that a professor with knowledge of norwegian dialects might be able to tell where in Norway the word skutese is used. And that they who told you that people from the south of Norway can't understand what people from the north are saying is wrong. Or talking about ignorant people. Per Helge Seglsten
James E HegI find this dialog quite interesting. I am surprised that the web site moderators so strongly deny that Norwegians from different regions sometimed have difficulty understanding each other. During a field trip with an NRK crew two years ago, Erik Bye and his cameraman, whom I believe was from the Bodo area, had a bit of difficulty commnuicating in Norwegian. In a discussion during dinner that evening both of these men related that this was not, repeat not, uncommon in Norway, due to different dialects existing in various areas in Norway. Though he was educated in Wisconsin, I take Erik Bye as a quite authoritative voice with respect to Norway. Another example, from an earlier era is set forth by Mr.Harry Cleven in the the forward to a book. Mr Cleven had lived in Norway since 1979 and is associated with the Norse Federation in Oslo. Here is a quote: "There were language difficulties not only between the Norwegians and other nationals, but between Norwegians themselves who came from various parts of Norway and spoke their own dialects." He then quotes Waldemar Ager, "Nearly all the widely varying Norwegian dialects were being spoken somewhere or other at one time or another, and sometimes the men had to resort to a limited knowledge of English to make themselves understood. Also this quote, "God alone knows what kind of people we're mixed up with here. They claim they are Norwegians, and they cuss in Norwegian, but when most of them talk, I can't figure out what they are saying." Since the website is largely dealing with history, it makes sense to give consideration to the dialect problems that certainly existed during the time frame of our interest. This problem is, to some extent, common to all countries, even today. This seems a bit of a good bonfire. I thoughtI would throw some fuel on it. Jim Heg Erik Bye is a friend of mine. Edited by - James E Heg on 06/08/2002 21:08:16
Borge As I am the only web site moderator participating in this tread, I will like to point out that I do NOT deny that Norwegians from different regions some times have difficulty understanding each other. What I say is that I have never heard that "slang" before, and that I will put the question forward to someone who is an expert on the area. I am a "Trønder", and our Trønder dialect is known to be hard for others to understand, and yes, I have experienced that when traveling in Norway. I also think it is true that some people will have language difficulties with people from areas where that speak a very differing dialect from what they do them selves. However, I think this problem was greater before, when the different areas were more isolated. With the modern infrastructure we have today, the dialects seam to have a tendency to fade away as the modern society demands that people can understand each other. I agree with Jim, this is a very interesting subject! Børge Solem
auroraI had written a reply regarding dialects in Norway, but the forum said I had misspelled my username and when I went back to correct it, the message had disappeared.
thelebrityBorge: That had to be in the Bærum area;c) I still argue that if a norwegian claims he doesn't understand another norwegian dialect he has to be arrogant or in need of hearing aid. Of course there are words that could be difficult, but in a conversation there really shouldn't be any problems. Myself I don't have any dialect, as I've grown up outside military camps all along Norway from Ski to Kirkenes. But I've never had trouble understanding even fast speaking people from the innermost areas of Sogn. And dialects from Trøndelag, give me a break! Erik Bye and his camera man had to be talking with their mouths full of food if they had problems understanding each other, or it might have been a single word or expression that caused the trouble. Norwegians having to speak english to understand each other, now that's rubbish! I don't know how it was a hundred years ago, but to day a norwegian starting to speak english to another norwegian would experience the third official norwegian language; slagsmål. Per Helge Seglsten
BorgeSlagsmål... I agree with Per Helge, that it in our days problems understanding dialects would be limited to single words or expressions. However, you do not have to go many decades back in time, to find people living around the country, who had never traveled outside the valley where they lived, and who had never owned a TV. The dialects are loosing terrain, and old fashion words and expressions are filtered out. I could make a list of old word and expressions from different Trønder dialects which I think most people would have great problems with understanding, but again, those are single words. Børge Solem
aurora.
auroraI just wanted to add that we have the same problem all over Europe, and it seems like it's happening the same also in the States. English spoken in England is drifting apart from the same language spoken in the States. In the States we have trouble understanding accents and slangs from the South. One example I have is about Italy, there every region has its own dialect, and different areas of that region have variation of the same dialect, this because of the influence some cultures have had in one area more than another during the past century's invasions. When somebody from the South speaks in their local dialect, people from the North don't understand a word, and vice versa. To communicate they have to either speak in their official language (i.e. Italian) or English. So I understand this problem very well. But still my question remains unanswered, if most of you are claiming that it's easy to understand the various Norwegian dialects, how come nobody has explained the area of origin of the word Skutese and the exact meaning of it?
James E HegAurora - Since our friend thelebrity doesn't seem to want to cut us any slack on this topic, and by his experience is more knowledgeable than most Norwegians, and since no one has answered your question, I took a look at the dictionary of old words posted on this site. There is no exact word "skutese" but there is a word "skute" meaning small ship. I am not familiar with Norwegian slang but you seem to be on a good track. Maybe Børge or another moderator can suggest what happens when "ese" or "se" is added to a word. Perhaps it suggests "many small ships." I couldn't find a word for "fleet." This may not help but it makes me feel better. Jim Heg Erik Bye is a friend of mine.
thelebrityAurora: My guess, if Skutese origins from norway, is that the -se originally was -sø (old spelling of sjø=sea) There is a farm named Skute, and if it had a small sub farm it could have been named skutesø, and not been mentioned in the 1801 census or the old farm name's encycylopedia "Norske gaardnavne". Per Helge Seglsten
auroraThank You I think fleet is "flote" but I believe the correct translation,in this case,is "many ships" (that's the way it was translated to me). Where is the Skute farm located? What fylke? And is there also a town called Skuteness? I will take in consideration both translations, because also Skute sjo is a possibility. I had suspected in the past that the name could be Norwegian but not until I started being more interested in genealogical research did I look for the exact meaning of the word.
BorgeI think Per Helge is on to something, as the -se ending makes no sense. I have been checking quite a lot of sources to find out about different postfixes which could make a sense to skute, but without luck. Another thing I would like to add is that "skute" when used as the name of a farm has another meaning than "skute" used for a ship. A farm with the postfix skute indicates a place with an "overhanging" structure, like a cliff or something sticking out in the landscape. I would also like to add the debate about "dialects and slang", that dialect and slang are two different things. Slang seams to have a much shorter life than a dialect, which has a more permanent structure and falls in to very specific patterns. As a part of our high-school education we learn about the different patterns of our dialects, and are supposed to be able to pin point the region where a dialect is from by identifying specific markers in the way the words and sentences are built and pronounced. Slang on the other hand, is more random and words come and go, and are often abbreviations or "funny" compositions. I doubt it very much if someone would use a "slang" in their name. If I am right, we should be able to find it, if it origins from Norway, and if it was not "Italianized". I will not get in touch with the expertise before next week, but then I will let you know what I learn. Børge Solem
auroraThank You Borge, as I already specified, the name doesn't exist in Italy and the only letter that's been changed is the K, since in italian we don't have letter K in the alphabet, it was replaced by a C. Other than that the name sounds Norwegian and even in Italy they had difficulties to pronounce it.
auroraI checked on the other discussion in the general forum (one of my first postings titled "It sounds Norwegian!!") and Ninakarls said in her reply that the word Skute can also mean "annex" and gave also a list of all the farm names that have the word skute in it.
BorgeSorry Aurora, no luck with "Skutese"! It seams not be a known expression in Norwegian dialects. Børge Solem
auroraThank You. Oh and I requested my e-mail address to be hidden but it didn't work, all my messages show my e-mail address.
auroraSo what the "expert" in Norwegian dialects exactly said?
thelebrityOk, Aurora. There is a possibility that your name is norwegian. But what you really have to do is tracing your family lines back in time to find the first bearer of the name. If you're lucky the sources will reveal where he might have come from. It isn't neccercerily from Norway. The ending -ese in italian might indicate that the name says someting about where the first name bearer came from. If this theory is right your ancestor might in fact have been scottish. Even if it's written scozzese today, I guess it could have been written Scutese some hundred years ago. Or what do you think? Anyway; finding norwegian farm names that looks the same as your surname will never prove the origin of your name. You will have to trace it down in italian sources. Per Helge Seglsten
Borge
quote:
So what the "expert" in Norwegian dialects exactly said?
Aurora, I am sorry to disappoint you, but he was not able to relate the word to dialects or places in Norway, and the "se" ending makes no meaning. Børge Solem
Borge
quote:
Thank You. Oh and I requested my e-mail address to be hidden but it didn't work, all my messages show my e-mail address.
I am sorry about that, it was due to a security bug we had to fix. The fix did not go together with the "hide e-mail" function. I have implemented a new hide e-mail, which makes it possible only for registered users of the forum to send you mail from the forum as long as they are logged on. It is the best I can do for now Børge Solem
ninakarlsThe farm Skute is situated in Gran, Opland County. But when searching Norske gaardnavne=Norwegian farm names, I find another, maybe far fetched, but interesting, theory. If the name "emigrated" as early as the 1500s it could be a misspelling for Skutilsnese. 1559: Skuttlenes, 1590: Skottnis, 1642: Skottnes, 1669: Schotnes and today it is spelled Skotnes. The origin is said to be skyttel=shuttle and nes=headland. The farm is situated in Leka Parish, Nord Trøndelag County. The farm name is also found in Bindalen. It brings to mind the story about the Italian (Venezian) Pietro Querini who sailed from Kreta to Northern Norway in the year 1431. His ship went down and only eleven of the crew of sixty-eight survived. He has written the story about their stay in Røst. There are many legends of Spanish and Italian shipwrecked sailors settling along the coast of Norway, explaning why some families have brown eyes and dark hair.
David StrommenI wanted to respond to the dialect issue. I am a third generation Norwegian/American. I grew up speaking Norwegian from a very young age. The language was my father's first language. When I went to Luther College my dialect was a problem as it was the one from Nordfjord and it interferred with those newly learning the language bokmål. I have studied two years in Norway. My first year I took my norsk grunnfag successfully. During that year my father and mother came for a visit. While in Oslo my father was doing some shopping and spoke to a clerk. His Norwegian was very, very fluent(according to relatives in Norway without accent), and she responded in English to him. This was in 1987. This I thinks points to the fact that at least some in Norway might not be willing to understand the country (ie, Rural) dialects. Also during that same year I had fun with a farmer in Telemark, He tried to stump me with his dialect, and I did the same. Growing up in Forest City, IA we heard lots of dialects around us. We understood each other, but if there was some difficulty often we would revert to the church language or riksmål. If that did not work than it was just to mix in a little more English, give a lilt and we were back on track. Helsingar David Strømmen
hastoSkutese doen not sound as a Norwegian name. Norwegian surnames are usually easy to track. Most Norwegian surnames were established about 1900 Farmes usually took in use the farm name as a family surname. Town people and fishermen usually took in use the patronymic surname (of their father) as a family surname. Before 1900 a few people moving to town or making a career took in use the farm name as a family surname. About 1800 common Norwegians used patronymic surnames and did not have a family surname. The family surnames at that time (about 2-3 % of the Norwegian population) were mostly of foreign origin.
AspmannTwo comments: "Skutese": Definetaly sounds like a name wich is NOT Norwegian. It may be spelled wrong or something, but in that form, it does not sound Norwegian at all. I have all of my family from the regions in Trøndelag, south of Trondheim, and I can tell you with almost absloute certainty the Skutese is NOT a dialect for of the word Skute. If you search at www.opplysningen.no, the Norwegian telephone catalog on the web, you will fin no one with that surname. Understanding dialects: I agree that most people understand eachother in Norway, no matter where you are from. The most "extreme" dialects have in many cases become less extreme, and have become a bit more similar to bokmal, or the dialect spoken in the nearest big city. This is an ongoing development, and a lot has happened the last 30 years (also after 1979, when Erik Bye made his stories for TV). However, I admit, that in some cases, if two locals are speaking together in a very rare dialect, and they speak very fast, you have to listen closely to understand everything. And some local words may be unfamiliar to you, but you often understand them because of the context.