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Originally posted by Kåarto

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Originally posted by tree

I
Google translator is good but seems to only get about 40 to 50% of the translation forcing me to take the undefined words one by one. This will take awhile.

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Translating correctly Norwegian (Danish/Norwegian) law cases from 1888 to English can be difficult even if one speaks Norwegian, but it seems like the meaning, 40-50%, is ok translated.

Kåre

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Originally posted by tree

Takk Kåre. From what I can see, it is very challenging to translate and of course I do not speak Norwegian, although I am trying to learn a small amount. We really need a more precise translation, in order to determine if Herman Ludvig Mathisen was present or in Norway any of those years or if he was presumed dead or no where to be found.

If you care to weigh in on this issue, with a reference to the specific language in the document which provides the information, we would appreciate it greatly.

Best regards,

Eric.

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Originally posted by Kåarto

[quote]Originally posted by tree

I
Google translator is good but seems to only get about 40 to 50% of the translation forcing me to take the undefined words one by one. This will take awhile.

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Translating correctly Norwegian (Danish/Norwegian) law cases from 1888 to English can be difficult even if one speaks Norwegian, but it seems like the meaning, 40-50%, is ok translated.

Kåre

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Originally posted by tree

Thanks Kåre.
thats a great start.
some of the words wont make sense because the google translator did not properly read the original text. The font of the print is challenging to decipher. Sometimes it appears the word in the text has too many letters in it.
Every little bit helps complete another piece of the puzzle.
If a word dpesnt make sense our only option might be to reexamine the original case law text.

I will tell you that all of these developments have reinstilled in me a desire to travel to Norway as soon as maybe next summer. I have never been, but always have been drawn to do so. I even started looking at bed and breakfasts accomodations.

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Originally posted by vvassar

Oh, if you go, please try to find where to request Gaustad records. I've emailed several people hoping someone could point me in the right direction to request but I am hitting dead ends.

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Originally posted by Kåarto

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Originally posted by vvassar

Oh, if you go, please try to find where to request Gaustad records. I've emailed several people hoping someone could point me in the right direction to request but I am hitting dead ends.

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Do you mean Gaustad asylum?
The 1865,1900 and 1910 censuses are online. The handwritten1891 census for the parish is also online, dif to navigate to get the correct sub parish.

Kåre

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Originally posted by Kåarto

Maren is not rec. in the 1910 census for Gaustad or in the death protocols from Vestre Aker parish (Aker merged with Oslo 1948) between 1900-1910 where Gaustad was located

Kåre

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Harvard Law School Library?

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"Domme (the Verdict)
Arvel, K 74 was used. SpsrgSmaalet (Question) whether a Umyndiggjsrelse (Disempower) works SRA's Udfcerdigelse ( b Formulate /b ) or fsrst from his Thinglcesning (public registration of ab agreement) charged untouched,
Hgiesterets Botering (supreme cort voting) and Tom of öl Oltbr, f, B. in case, L.-Nr. V l "9l: Laudhandler Hans Andersen Hange iFyhin against Smaalenenes Amtslommune (Østfold County municipalities) by the magistrate, Smaalenenes County, Onsg (Onsøy) poor Commission by Ordssreren (Referent?) Slibsreder (Ship-owner) and Carl I. Andersen Aale as Bcerge sor the disenfranchised Herman Louis Mathisen (Seip befliNet).
AssessSr (Judge) Motzseldt: in reference to ncervcerende (Current) SOGS Gjcnstand (Object) and what is sanime lidligere (Earlier) has passed hcnviser (refers) I PrcemiSserne (Premises) il
') Cf.. My-cited treatise on fortune Interventions etc. § S. ") That he is not under a previous case is fceldet (obsolete) etc., can of course ei (not) come into consideration .. Is he acquitted for Tyvstiltale (prosecuted as a thief), he itte later occasion same Conditions res ester 21-9.
on the Christiania Diocese Over Legal 1 Section under 26 Novbr 1888 ofsogte Dom (pronunced /imposed sentence)
The poaberaabte Domsprcemisser (invoked grounds for judgment)are worded as follows:
"Efterat (after) Elen Andrea Hansdatier, widow of Mathis Larsen Aale of onso had still Doden (died) dell 15 Marls 1883 and their Fcellesbo (common property) taken under public Switching treatment (probate court) to Dcling (share) between their Born (children), among which was Sonnen (the son) Herman Louis Mathiesen, who was put in UmyndighedSstand (under age, gurdianship) by Smaalcnenes County's Resolution of 7 July 1888, thinglcest (public registration) July 17 ncestefler.
During 1l) the same month, had Louis Mathisen oprcttct (created) any Contract with Country Handler (merchant) Hans Andersen Hauge provides:
"The me after my Force Parents' Mathis Larsen and Elen Andrea Hansdatler tilfaldende (accrue) Inheritance Capital is hcrved (hereby) transferred to Land Handler (Merchant) Anderson»
Scanned at Hauge for a Amounts of Kr. 600,00
Likewise handed him my demand in the aforesaid Bo. . "114.00
combined. . Kr. 714M fyv hundred and fourteen crowns (Kroner) why Currency is received. "
This contract was of Land Handler Andersen presented the diocese. Undcr dctte fremlagdes (submitted) also Assignment from the magistrate in Smacilenenes County and ONSS Faltigkommission (Onsøy poor comission) of Udgifler (expenses) which Amlskommunen (county municipality) and ONSS Fatligvcrsen (Onsøy welfare agency) had had for Louis Malhisens find sick wife with Kröv (claim) on Udlceg (disbursements) for stampede Costs His inheritance from Forcrldrene (the parents)
In Probate Assembly of 25 April 1884 anmodcde (solicit) the Hans Christian Andersen msdendc Sagfsrer (with his lawyer) that the Bankruptcy Court would cause that was has established Forligsmoegling (conciliation proceedings) between Hans Andersen, who was personally present and Boel He "concerning His assertion according Transfer of June 10 lskal vcere July) f. A. "Forligsmcegling anstilledes then between LandHändler Andersen on one side and Louis Mathisen Voerge (guardian?), Shipowner CI Andersen and ONSS poor Commission Ordfsrer bailiff Wettergren on the other side. In that we read," Partner Andersen erklcerede (declares) for fit Bedkommende (competent) willing to indrsmm (?): Country Handler Andersen Repayment of legitimate interest fr 'Transportation Lens Datum of the 600 Kroner why hon has kjsbt (why she has bought)Stervbossnnens (?) inheritance, but insisted isvrigt the present [b]transaction overthrown as udfsrt (performed) of disempowered Mond.
Wettergren erklcerede (declares) other hand, the poor Commission Begne the entire Transport for invalid and wild modfcette (resisting) that Land Handler Andersen udbe 'lalies (paid) anything Amounts of the estate. Sidstncevnte (Latter) (Hans Christian Andersen), on his side was unwilling ot conclude nogct (any) settlement mcdniindre (unless) transport in its totality was maintained. Something Mceglingsrcsultat (broker result) our so not to obtain. "
Between Land Handler Andersen and the regional authority befuldmcegtigede anstilledes later Forligsmoegling in a Changing Collection of 31 Oktbr. 1884, and here we read that Ma? Glingen begjceredes and was has established "concerning Amlskommunens Kröv on Herman Louis Malhisens inheritance," but out "that something Income yielded, Country Handler Andersen contended then Claiming according to the ncevnte Transfer of July 10, 1883 to have the attention they designated the Ludwig Mathisen after His Foroeldre "tilfaldne Inheritance," while His Voerge and regional authority and ONSS poor Commission asserted: 1) The document of 10 July 1883 is known invalid to voere, 2) that the Louis Mathisen in His afdsde Forceldres Bo tilfaldne Inheritance and of His demand in the same Bo udlcegges to Smaalenenes AmtSkommunc Kr. 919.00 "and the ONSS Poor Box Kr. 850.56, while the rest afscrttes to D 'pas cher as the Udloeg which ncevnte Faltigkasse still will Hove for Lye> vig Malhisens insanity Wife or udloegges the disenfranchised to later form part of, the trustee's office and 3) Hans Andersen to pay counterparty tilstrcekkclige Costs.
In the Jndlceg of June 23, 1885, which sidstncevnie assertion freniscetteS is blaudt Share bemcerket that Hans Christian Andersen Sagfsrer SCE not to Hove ncdlagt Paastcind that Louis Mathisen demand in Boct udlcrggcs Hans Andersen and thus have prevented the relevant Document of July 10, 1883, insofar Fordringcn concerned, can be maintained. To this the Hans Christian Andersen Sagforer that Louis Mathisen's transfer of its receivable Boel is not involved in dcnne Case, which concerned only legacy, and that Forligsnicrglingen Nor has anganet something other than this. Hon consider withal Aintskommunen and ONSS Fatligkommission incompetent to demand Udlceg in Louis Mathisen Forceldres Bo for his possible Receivable from this, as after His supposition maaite gjore this gjceldende by Ssgsmaal against Louis Mathiscn, like he thought both those who Vcergen ineligible to modscette that the Hans Andersen transferred inheritance bleu this laid out in the estate. He nedlcigde dcrfor such further assertion 1) principaliter that case ofviscs and 2) in subsiäium the Transfer document of 10 July 1883 erkjendes ghldigt to vcere and in consequence Amtskoinmunen and ONSS Faltigkasse kjcndes unjustified to be somewhat udlagle in Malhis Larsen and his wife Elen Andersdatter ( fkal vcere His daughter) Bo.
The function of the judge in Tune Sorenskriveri as the bankruptcy manager of the aforesaid Bo during the March 23, 1887 aside Decision blcv then the omlvistede Contract of July 10, 1888 mellein Herman Louis Malhisen and Hans Andersen Hauge known invalid to vcere and Smaalenenes Amtskom 'municipality and onso Poor Cash felt entitled to respectively Kr. 919.11 and 8S0,56 to enjoy Udlceg in the estate, as far tilstrcekke can Stervbosonnen Herman Louis Mathisen Sied.
Skifteforvaltcrcn bemcerker withal in Prcemisserne that the inheritance that would fall on Louis Mathisen Party certainly can anscettes the tredobbellc of the Kjobesum, Transportdokumcntet fastscetter, and the amount can is also subsequently indicated that udgjsre Kr. 2042.23.
This Decision Hans Andersen Hauge VCD Stcevning as 18 April 1887 inod Smaalenenes County Council VCD magistrate, onso Fatligkommission by its Ordforer and Herman Louis Mathisen trusteeship, Karl Andersen Aale as Main Counterparties and Sagvoldere appealed this to the Court, in which he claims that contention: 1) to dismiss the Skisteretlen so far as regards onso Fatligkommission and Smaalenenes County Council, which ansees for inkompelente Parties, 2) to dismiss the ^ Skiflerelten insofar as an 'apparent Kr. 114,00 on which Forligsmcegling not vceret aligned, in both Tilfcelde to Appell, on the other party tilkjendes Diet and Tcering and 3) Decisionen underkjendes or known by ueflerretlig. and that Appell, according Transfer of July 10, 1883 will be to udlcegge the Herman Louis MaIhisen after his Force 'Parents at Skiflet tilfaldne inheritance.
Also paastaor Appell, the Jndst. ordered in soliäum to beiale his case 'costs.
The Jndst, Hove after acquired bsnenoium p 'upert' tis free Sagforer alleged Switches Ellen's Decision stadfcestet and Appell, loaded Process' costs. "
By Over Court ncevnte Dom was so kjcndi for Change: "So far there is Awarded to Smaalenenes County and onso Fat 'tigkasse Right lil enjoy Udlceg in the Herman Louis Mctthisen to Appell. Hans Andersen Hange by Transportdokuinent of 10 July l888 transferred demand in Boet cftcr Herman Louis Mathisen ofdsde Force Parents' Mathis Larsen and Elen Andrea Hcmsdatter large 114 - one hundred fourteen - Kroner bsr it appealed against Skiftedecision of 23 Marls 1887 uefterrettelig to voere, whereby the case for dcnne Ford Rings He asvises from Shift. reiten. So far Herman Louis Mathisen at samme'Transportdokument has overdrnge! His inheritance efier Foiceldrene to Hons Andersen Hange, known by deite Document invalid to voere and BSR Smaalencnes vg ONSS Fottigvcesen in bcmeldte Bo nhde Udlceg in this inheritance of respectively 919 - nine hundred and nittcn - Kroner 11 - elltve - Dre and 850 - Otie hundred and fifty - Kr. 56 - sex and fifty - Are.
Processcns costs for Stifisoverretten ophceves and the Jndst. Herman Louis Mathisen Vcerge Karl Andersen Aale and Smoa 'lcnenes County and ONSS poor Commission ordered Sagfsrer Advocate ° kai Heyerdahl tilkjendes in Salar 120 - one hundred and twenty - Kr., Paid by Statskossen. "
Over Court Judgment is Landhondler Hans Andersen Hange brought before Hsieftcret where hon contends that such an assertion:
The Diocese Over Clean Dom. inasmuch AfviSning- from the Bankruptcy Court has fundct Place, stadscestes and that the afsogte Skiftedecision and Overretsdom isvrigt underkjendes or known by uefterrettelig to vcere.
That the Jndstcevnie for Hsiesteret, Smaalenenes County Council ONSS poor Commission and Herman Louis Mathiscns Vcerge in estate Mathis Larsen and Elen Andrea His Daughter disused Paostand about ot that of the Herman Louis Mathisen in this Bo tilfaldne inheritance udlcegges Kr. 919.11 to Smaalenenes County and Kr. 850.56 to onso poor. ocrsen not tagcs tilfslge.
To Appell, for Hsiesteret, Hans Andersen Hauge is known entitled isslge Transfer of July 10, 1883 to have the attention they themselves laid the Herman Louis Mathisen in ovenncevnte Bo tilfaldne Inheritance and
Of the Jndstcevnte here to order the defendant in soliäur 'ot pay Appell., Hans Andersen Hauge, tilstrcekkelige Oinkostningcr the Superior Court and Hsiesteret.
Jndst., Also for Hsiesteret has obtained the beneöoiuW Processus Zrawiti By the commanded Sagfsrer alleged diocese, the Court's judgment, as far appealed is stodfoestet and Appell, ordered to pay Processcns costs for Hsiesteret as if the matter had not vceret-assigned, including the Solarium to the commanded Sagfsrer.
As the diocese, the Court's judgment is not kontropaoonket, are not available for Hsiesteret Sogen, inasmuch as the of Stifisoverretten is ofvist. Here forelig "seeking only Sporgsmoolct about the validity of the ftedfundne Transfer of legacy.
From Jndst.s Side has been made gjceldende to transfer already for that reason not might constitute valid, it is announced at a time when Louis Mathisen our disempowered. To Umyndiggjsrelsen yet our thinglcest, denied ot vcere without significance, as Hans Andersen Hauge deemed iolfald to Hove had suld nest on, ot it in our Gjcere to fao Louis Mathisen made a minor. This Jndsigelse behsver I am not that asgjsre since I of thousands it absolutely clear that the transfer in any case is' valid in virtue of Arvel.s § 74. The transfer or Salzet of inheritance is in fact made before the registration of the estate had taken place, and without 'In any of it in the ncevnte K Forcstrevne our iogltoget. And the amount surrendered 'tion invalid, I find that the matter is thus settled. Appell, has since no competence to protesterc courage ot be given Udlceg for county Kommuninvest 'neu or ONSS Fottigvcesen. Is the hon creditor of the estate, the hon foo, HVOD hon has to demand, within the estate are distributed. And 'year hon not heir to the estate, the hon nothing with. how the estate is distributed to heirs. In the absence of any proper He in the estate and especially not from Louis MachisenS Vcerge has protested ot given Smaalenenes County and ONSS Fattigvcesen by those demanded Udlceg, cr no access for strangers to 'I meddle into it. A potential creditor at Louis Mathisen has Appell, not Abgang to interfere into Opgjor of Bo, where Louis Malhisen is heir. Anser Appell, the bercttiget to have the attention they paid back the legacy of alleged paid 600 Kr., He gets anlcegge Search against Louis Mathisen Vcerge. If he Dom for this Amounts, and he assumes that the regional authority and ONSS Fattigvcesen not have a right to keep what in virtue to Fattigl.s H 10 have them distributed, he obtains cmlcegge proceedings against them. But none of these questions is to Afgjsrelse here.
I come altsoa to the same result as Stiflsoverretlen. It will be seen that my recital of the matter is not quite falber with Stifts' ovcrrettens. But I assume the book, it may undgaoes for the reason that GIVC new Conclusion.
Appell, has in my opinion had so little reason to refer the case for Hoiesteret, that.He can not avoid paying Costs Costs for this right.
Conclusion:
Diocese Over Court Judgment live so far appealed is at Mögt the stands. In legal expenses for Hoiesteret pay Appell. Hans Andersen Hange the Jndst ,, Smaalenenes Amiskommune ONSS Fatligkommission and Ship ° nests Karl I. Andersen (Aale) as Vcerge for the disenfranchised Herman Louis Mathisen 262 - two hundred and sixty-two - crowns, out of which "were Solarium to the order Hoiesteret commanded Sagforcr Lawyer Seid 250 - two Hnndrede and fifty - Crowns - and the rest, as far as tilstrcekke can Reis- and ovrige fees, among Stcevncvidncrnes is to come, as the case for Hoiesteret had vceret bencsiceret.
Extraordn. Assessor, c. Attorney Lochen: I am in the Vcesentlige and results agree with Forstvoterende.
Assessor Scheel, exiraordn. Judge, Lawyer Birkeland and As' sesforerne Thoresen, Reimers and Saxlund: Likewise.
Hoiesterels Dom was dcrefter ofsagt ovcrensstemmende with Forstvote 'rcndes Conclusion.
In a Kjobekontrakt was a Mortgage Bond seilagtig Stated with premature Forsaldstid. Efterat Eiendommen again was folgt with repetition of the erroneous assignment he Forfalostiden, and he mortgagee then by order> mature more had taken the pledge to Using Equality, ran the last Kjsber the tiltranspor 'with fine informant man Erstawingskrav against the ovrindelige Scelger for damage caused by the fact that Mortgage bond were past due by the time indicated. Efterat Sogsmaalet our landscaped, forbade the first Kjsber assignee to gjsre Erstatniiigskravet directly gjceldende against the original Scelger. Vennes dervaa built Claiming Asvisning or dismiss was rejected, whereas he frifcmdtes for Ergatningskravet because he knows Kjsbekontraktens Udfcerdigelse had stated that bond maturing no earlier than the contract provided. "Iefterets Boterina and Judgment of 24 Oktbr. f. A. in the matter, L.Nr. V> 8SL: krceddermcster M, Holmstrom lStaug Lnnd) against G G. Maarnds Konknrsbo (Overretsfagförcr H. Heyerdahl to Prgvcl. Extraordn. Assessor. Lawyer Birkeland: In respect to the faktifle Forudscelninger for ncervcrrende cause, and the parties in the first Instant 'disused Paastcmde refers I Prcemisserne to Christiania cage Judgment of 9 April 1889:
"In Kjobekontrakt of 20 Febr. 1885, thus M. Holmstrom for G. Olsen folgte yard Matr.'Nr. 19 in Stolmagcrgaden Hersteds, task with regard to one of the yard paahvilendc Pcmchceftelser, at trade over by Kjoberen, namely ifslge Mortgage Bond large Kr. 4500.00 for Student Fleischer, who Birkelighe ^ fell due for payment on 12 Novbr."

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[quote][i]Originally posted by tree

Good morning,
it is amazing to me just how much additional information each of the you have been able to add to our norwegian long lost family. I have been absent from this discussion for a couple years and your contributions have reinvigorated my energies.

In making a google search of Herman Ludvig I stumbled across a document of some legal proceeding I believe may possibly be my great great grandfather. I spent a couple hours attempting to translating the contents on page 101 through 107 with little luck other than a word or 2.

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Originally posted by vvassar

I've had no success yet trying to obtain the full records from Gaustad.

We did find this, which appears to indicate the start of all of these events, and the collapse of the family. http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-tl20080804010898.jpg

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