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yelenots
Starting member
United Kingdom
6 Posts |
 Posted - 28/03/2015 : 21:36:01
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Hi, I am looking for a James Carr who I believe died onboard the ss Germanic on the 28th June 1888
I cannot find any record of a sailing around this date or passenger list.......hoping someone can help me please?
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 00:48:02
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The Germanic arrived in New York on June 15, 1888, and on July 13, 1888. Neither ship had a passenger named James Carr. From Ancestry.com
The June 15 arrival had a John Carr.
The July 13 arrival had a James B Carrol but no one named Carr.
Name: James B Clark
Arrival Date: 13 Jul 1888
Birth Date: abt 1846
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: American
Place of Origin: United States of America
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Germanic
Search Ship Database: Search for the Germanic in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 00:52:32
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The nearest James Carr on the Germanic listed by Ancestry.com is this one in 1892. Do you know the birth year of your James Carr.
Name: James Carr
Arrival Date: 16 Dec 1892
Birth Date: abt 1871
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Place of Origin: United States of America
Port of Departure: Liverpool Queenstown
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Germanic
Search Ship Database: Search for the Germanic in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 00:58:27
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This is the next nearest James Carr arriving on the Germanic.
Name: James Carr
Arrival Date: 14 Jun 1886
Birth Date: abt 1848
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Place of Origin: England
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Destination: Liverpool,United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Germanic
Search Ship Database: Search for the Germanic in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 14:28:52
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| Hi yelenots - to progress with unraveling your knot, you'll need to tell the forum who he was (birth date and place, wife or parents or children, residence, etc) and also why you believe he died on that ship on that day (because seemingly he did not - yet that's the only fact about him stated). |
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yelenots
Starting member
United Kingdom
6 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 15:35:23
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Hi, Thank you for your replies. It seems a little more info is required!
James Carr DOB 11/6/1821 born in Wetton, Staffordshire. He was married to Mary and had 12 children!
He owned his own smallware company called 'James Carr and Son' in Hulme, Manchester. He patented his own product - woven tape for venetian blinds and he was a very wealthy man when he died!
I have found his grave and on his headstone it states 'died at sea on the 28th June 1888 on board s.s Germanic aged 67yrs' - this has been clarified with church records.
Thank you
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Edited by - yelenots on 29/03/2015 15:36:59 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 17:19:38
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So that's an unusually sound reason to believe James Carr died on the SS Germanic 28 June 1888. (...not so much a belief, as it is a fact according to the reliable sources of tombstone and church records).
I bet you've researched whether other ships of that name were operating at the time. The research of lyndal40 and the information on the link below show that the SS Germanic of the White Star Line was headed east on the day in question, having departed North America and en route home to England. Usually we find and presume the USA kept no records of people leaving the US. Thus James should be found on a passenger manifest for travellers arriving in the UK - it is a UK record. Somewhere on that manifest should be a note of the death on board.
As a hypothesis, with no basis but what you've said, James Carr could be a business traveler with business in the US, traveled there for a short-term stay, and was returning home.
If so, he could depart England on any other ship and show up on its manifest arriving in the US. In other words, the records we'd find at Ancestry.com aren't going to be limited to arrivals of the SS Germanic.
lyndal40, does Ancestry have manifests of ARRIVALS in the UK?
SS Germanic schedule:
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=germc
Yelenots, have you found and ordered a copy of his death record? This too would again confirm the death info, and again, this would be a United Kingdom record.
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Edited by - JaneC on 29/03/2015 17:25:21 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 17:35:48
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quote:
lyndal40, does Ancestry have manifests of ARRIVALS in the UK?
Yes, but I did not have much luck there. Here is the only James Carr found using arrival 1888 plus minus 2 years.
Name: James Carr
Birth Date: abt 1837
Age: 50
Port of Departure: Boston, Massachusetts, United States
Arrival Date: 17 Apr 1887
Port of Arrival: Queenstown, Ireland
Ship Name: Scythia
Search Ship Database: Search for the Scythia in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Cunard Steamship Company Lt
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 17:48:22
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The Ancestry.com Data Base is
UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
The problem seems to be that there are no entries for the year 1888 in this data base.!
All UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 Results
For the Germanic there are only 52, 281 passengers listed for all years. None for 1888.
For July, 1889, there are 1.179. Twenty named James, none with a last name of Carr. Only four born in 1821 plus, minus 2 none named even close to James Carr. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 18:36:25
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Too bad, that the database on Ancestry.com does not include an arrival in the UK of the Germanic in late June/early July 1888. So then we know the database is incomplete (most are).
So there's still some chance of finding James Carr b 1821 arriving in New York on any ship in the days/weeks/months before the Germanic's mid-June departure.
Yelenots, you may need to research what other avenues are available to find incoming UK passenger lists (perhaps incoming to Liverpool). Alternately a historic newspapers search might turn up a newspaper account of the Germanic's arrival; some newspapers noted ship arrivals. Given Mr. Carr's prominence, there's maybe some chance the death onboard was reported. I'm not sure what genealogy forums would specialize in UK research. |
Edited by - JaneC on 29/03/2015 18:38:44 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 19:01:07
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Here is one candidate that turns up in the Ancestry.com data base for arrivals into New York.
James Carr in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Name: James Carr
Arrival Date: 12 May 1888
Birth Date: abt 1821
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Place of Origin: England
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Celtic
He is listed as Manufacturer and from Manchester |
Edited by - AntonH on 29/03/2015 19:03:03 |
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yelenots
Starting member
United Kingdom
6 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 21:50:37
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Thank you, both of you, for all your help.
The arrivals into New York for the 12 May 1888 sounds like it could be the one!
I'll try looking at googling newspaper archives websites to try and found out more.
Thanks again
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 22:35:10
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Great find Anton! That surely must be him.
Good luck, yelenots, finding out more.
;-) |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2015 : 22:49:56
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Here is some information on the Ancestry.com data base. You might be able to communicate with the original source to find out what happened to the data for 1888.
Ancestry.com. UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2008.
Original data: Board of Trade: Commercial and Statistical Department and successors: Inwards Passenger Lists. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA). Series BT26, 1,472 pieces.
Data imaged from the National Archives, London, England. The National Archives gives no warranty as to the accuracy, completeness or fitness for the purpose of the information provided. Images may be used only for purposes of research, private study or education. Applications for any other use should be made to the National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU.
This database is an index to the Board of Trade’s passenger lists of ships arriving in the United Kingdom from foreign ports outside of Europe and the Mediterranean. Exceptions to this are vessels that originated outside of these areas but then picked up passengers in European or Mediterranean ports en route. The UK port of arrival was not necessarily the final destination of the ship. In addition, the names found in the index are linked to actual images of the passenger lists, copied from The National Archives (TNA) collection series BT26.
The passenger lists date from 1878 to 1888 and 1890 to 1960. However, many of the pre-1890 lists were irregularly destroyed by the Board of Trade in 1900. Therefore, there are not many lists included in this database that date from these earlier years.
Separate lists were kept for British (and Commonwealth) passengers and Alien passengers. In addition, there was a variety of form types used throughout the years. These differences in forms may result in a variety of information recorded for different passengers. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2015 : 00:00:19
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| Hmmm, so it could be the database is incomplete re the needed manifest because it was destroyed. But one could inquire (of the National Archives). Even if destroyed, at least it would be good to know that and have closure on that line of inquiry. |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2015 : 13:16:07
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| The S/S Germanic arrived Liverpool from New York via Queenstown at 7:45 pm on June 28th, 1888. |
Børge Solem |
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ss Germanic 1888
