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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
 Posted - 25/05/2012 : 16:33:18
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My dictionary defines "handelsreisende", this Charles Vilson's occupation, as commercial traveller.
One other thing about Charles Wilson time line, jumping ship in 1863 or thereabouts. America was a war-zone from 1861-1865. To jump ship then would be a very dangerous thing, indeed. The war did affect migration. For instance in Nes, Hallingdal, migrations continued in the numbers as they had been but there were virtually no migrations in 1863-1864. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 25/05/2012 16:38:35 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2012 : 16:52:57
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Okay, I went through the list of Oslo churches found online at the digitalarkivet and distilled this list of churches with baptismal records covering most or parts of the 1830s:
Aker #6 1830-1838, pg 2-140 Births / baptisms
Garrisonsmenigheten #4 1828-1840, pg 1-239 "
Kristiania Tukthus #1 1818-1856 pg 2-113 "
Oslo Domkirke / Vår Frelsers #11 1830-1836 pg 1-694 "
Oslo Hospitalet / Gamlebyen #3 1829-1849 pg 1-161 "
Rikshospitalet #2 1832-1840 pg 2-286 " |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2012 : 19:37:30
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I am amazed to find all this!
Thank you!
You wrote: “The name Charles Wilson is perhaps not completely foreign to Norway. In 1865 Census there is one Charles Vilson living in Stavanger born in Christiania. My dictionary defines ‘handelsreisende,’ this Charles Vilson's occupation, as commercial traveller.”
Very interesting! I looked at the record you posted, and he is about the right age, born in Christiania, as you say, a commercial traveller (so he could be on a ship). These facts “fit.” He is a candidate - although a bit of a stretch (which we already discussed).
About the American Civil War: Ships from abroad did come and go constantly from New York City harbors during the American Civil War (Brooklyn is a part of the New York City area). The North blocked shipping into ports in the South, and this fact helped the North to win, but in the North the ports were open. No troops ever occupied New York City area that I recall; no troops ever came that far north to any Northern city. Also, we know that Charles Wilson did arrive in New York City area in this time -- dangerous or not -- since he begins to appear in local records (Brooklyn) about 1863. His “jumping ship” is not proven, I agree, and I agree with you that the point should not be dropped completely - but we did all look for an immigration record and did not find one, which lends credence to the "jump ship" story.
All this is making me think - the analysis, the probing, the creative slants on the situation, are especially important to finding someone as elusive as Charles.
I especially thank you for all the information, and now this latest treasure of parish information!!! The distillation of the parishes in Oslo in the 1830s is INVALUABLE!!!
NEXT JOBS:
1. Look for the birth record in Christiania of Charles Vilson, commercial traveler.
2. Search the pages jkmarler carefully noted in the parishes (having the shortened list and page numbers really helps!).
Jack, do you feel you can do these tasks? This next two weeks are tight for me. I am sooooo curious though, to see what those records may yield...
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JackWilson
Junior member
Philippines
62 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2012 : 01:27:26
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I would love to do it. However it seems that I don't begin to understand it. Where do I look and is it in Norwegian? quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
I am amazed to find all this!
Thank you!
You wrote: �The name Charles Wilson is perhaps not completely foreign to Norway. In 1865 Census there is one Charles Vilson living in Stavanger born in Christiania. My dictionary defines �handelsreisende,� this Charles Vilson's occupation, as commercial traveller.�
Very interesting! I looked at the record you posted, and he is about the right age, born in Christiania, as you say, a commercial traveller (so he could be on a ship). These facts �fit.� He is a candidate - although a bit of a stretch (which we already discussed).
About the American Civil War: Ships from abroad did come and go constantly from New York City harbors during the American Civil War (Brooklyn is a part of the New York City area). The North blocked shipping into ports in the South, and this fact helped the North to win, but in the North the ports were open. No troops ever occupied New York City area that I recall; no troops ever came that far north to any Northern city. Also, we know that Charles Wilson did arrive in New York City area in this time -- dangerous or not -- since he begins to appear in local records (Brooklyn) about 1863. His �jumping ship� is not proven, I agree, and I agree with you that the point should not be dropped completely - but we did all look for an immigration record and did not find one, which lends credence to the "jump ship" story.
All this is making me think - the analysis, the probing, the creative slants on the situation, are especially important to finding someone as elusive as Charles.
I especially thank you for all the information, and now this latest treasure of parish information!!! The distillation of the parishes in Oslo in the 1830s is INVALUABLE!!!
NEXT JOBS:
1. Look for the birth record in Christiania of Charles Vilson, commercial traveler.
2. Search the pages jkmarler carefully noted in the parishes (having the shortened list and page numbers really helps!).
Jack, do you feel you can do these tasks? This next two weeks are tight for me. I am sooooo curious though, to see what those records may yield...
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2012 : 03:46:12
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While there was a Charles Vilson in the 1865 Norwegian Census, there is no Charles Vilson or Wilson in the 1875 Norwegian Census. The 1875 is not totally complete for the country, so not being found could mean that he has left the country, died or was not counted.
If you want to search Norwegian Census data one useful site for English speakers is
NHDC |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2012 : 04:50:41
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| Ah - so Carl Vilson is definitely in Norway circa 1868. Thank you for finding him!! Now we can know he is not the Charles Wilson in Brooklyn. I like that NHDC site. Very helpful! and easy to use for an English speaker. I haven't worked on Charles at all - busy day here. Just stopped back to quickly see what was going on. Thanks again so much. I know Jack very much appreciates your expert and kind help. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2012 : 03:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Ah - so Carl Vilson is definitely in Norway circa 1868. Thank you for finding him!! Now we can know he is not the Charles Wilson in Brooklyn.
But he might still be worth pursuing--to nail down a place in Oslo that there was a family known by or using Vilson as a name. As weird as it sounds, there could be 2 Charles in the same family. I've seen this happen many times--I know of one family that had 3 Ole each born 1-2 years apart. The rational for such things are multiple: more than one grandfather with the name Ole that each need to be remembered in the names of grandsons; one or more of the children were not expected to survive, so better to insure that the namesake name be perpetuated, by duplicating the name; Mom missed the elder Ole and named the youngest son to remind her of the brother, etc.
But if you still want to pursue the Oslo parishes for Charles, I might suggest searching the confirmation records of those same parishes (plus any others which might have been formed during the intervening 15 years between Charles' birth and when he would have been confirmed.) So beginning with a birthyear of 1833- confirmation year of approximately 1848 and so on. The confirmation records from this era (mid 1800s) are usually a single line entry for each person, boys are usually grouped with boys and often the exact birthdate is part of the confirmation record along with parents' name and address. There is a largish number of babies born that will die before reaching confirmation age, so you are searching a smaller pool of names in the confirmation records vs baptismal.
One hangup would be if the family had moved from Oslo prior to confirmation then the search would likely be fruitless and if his Norwegian name was something utterly different from his American name, then you would only find him the birthdate was exactly right or there was some other overiding clue.
Until Anton posted the Charles Vilson of Stavanger, I hadn't thought about that spelling of Wilson. It makes a certain amount of sense, since V & W in Norwegian are interchangeable letters as are I and J, G and K, etc.
There are a couple of families with the last name Vilson in the 1865 census, one which seemed quite interesting as it included children of the approximate age of Charles (born 1830s, etc.)headed by a Scotsman named Ralph James Wilson who married Ingeborg Maren a Norwegian woman. They lived in Vest Agder which also the home fylke for Kristiansund. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 27/05/2012 03:27:05 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2012 : 06:05:55
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Yes - yes - I see what you mean! I had not thought of it that way. The name of Vilson is certainly a new and intriguing idea.
The instructions about how to do the search, including the idea about focusing first on the narrower list of confirmations, will be a great help! |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2012 : 16:49:18
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Jack, I see you asked: How do I do this? Here are some comments from the forum that show how to start. I don't know how much time the helpers have to give but it may be possible that if you have a question with a step, they can explain, then a question for the next step, they can help, and so on.
Posted by lyndal40:
"Here is a good starting point for learning about Norway and how to go about searching for ancestors."
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~norway/na2.html
"Here is the Starting Page in English for most searches."
http://www.arkivverket.no/eng/content/view/full/629
"...Click on the link named "Digitised Parish Registers" then click on "Read the Digitised parish registers" then under Velg Fylke click on Oslo and under Velg prestegjeld/sokn: click on Oslo Hospital / gamelbyen and then click on right side on the list of dates you are interested in, then click on 1834 in the section Fødte og døpte. "
Below is a post by jkmarler, showing which parishes to search, and showing which pages in the churchbook. Obviously you don't need to read each page - find the right year within the pages and read those entries. The clearest word to see in the old handwriting is the first name of the boy born/baptised. The post:
"Okay, I went through the list of Oslo churches found online at the digitalarkivet and distilled this list of churches with baptismal records covering most or parts of the 1830s:
Aker #6 1830-1838, pg 2-140 Births / baptisms
Garrisonsmenigheten #4 1828-1840, pg 1-239 "
Kristiania Tukthus #1 1818-1856 pg 2-113 "
Oslo Domkirke / Vår Frelsers #11 1830-1836 pg 1-694 "
Oslo Hospitalet / Gamlebyen #3 1829-1849 pg 1-161 "
Rikshospitalet #2 1832-1840 pg 2-286 "
… I might suggest searching the confirmation records of these same parishes….So beginning with a birth year of 1833 - confirmation year of approximately 1848 and so on. The confirmation records from this era (mid 1800s) are usually a single line entry for each person, boys are usually grouped with boys, and often the exact birth date is part of the confirmation record along with parents' name and address. " |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2012 : 23:04:33
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In addition to the James / Maren Wilson family mentioned before, there is this family headed by Ralph Wilson who married Ingeborg Marie Clemmetsdtr. Here they are in the 1865 census:
Ralph Wilson family in 1865 census:
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=2&filnamn=f61001&gardpostnr=987&personpostnr=10690&merk=10690#ovre
Ralph is already a widower and there are 3 children still in the house. Ralph is age 53 and born in Scotland.
From searching www.familysearch.org Norway Baptisms, Norway Marriages these are the known children:
1. Georg Alexander Wilson b. 7 Jan 1833 #5:
Source information: Aust-Agder county, Vestre Moland in Vestre Moland, Parish register (official) nr. A 3 (1816-1843), Birth and baptism records 1834, page 76.
Permanent pagelink: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9615&idx_id=9615&uid=ny&idx_side=-79" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9615&idx_id=9615&uid=ny&idx_side=-79
The brother Georg Alexander Wilson death, #2:
Kildeinformasjon: Bergen fylke, St. Jørgens hospital, Ministerialbok nr. A 13 (1886-1906), Døde og begravede 1889, side 56.
Permanent sidelenke: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7181&idx_id=7181&uid=ny&idx_side=-26" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7181&idx_id=7181&uid=ny&idx_side=-26
2.Clemmet Johannes Wilsonb. 2 Dec 1834, baptized 2 times 10 Dec 1834 at home and 21 June 1835 confirmed baptism in church
Clemmet Johannes son of Ralph Wilson, #30, born 2 Dec 1834, home baptism confirmed in church June 1835:
Kildeinformasjon: Aust-Agder fylke, Fjære i Øyestad, Ministerialbok nr. A 2 (1827-1839), Fødte og døpte 1835, side 71.
Permanent sidelenke: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9463&idx_id=9463&uid=ny&idx_side=-70" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9463&idx_id=9463&uid=ny&idx_side=-70
3. James Wilson b. 3 May 1836 Fjære, Aust Agder
James Wilson #3 confirmation son of Ralph and Ingeborg Marie:
Source information: Vest-Agder county, Kristiansand, Parish register (official) nr. A 13 (1842-1851), Confirmation records 1851, page 278.
Permanent pagelink: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=899&idx_id=899&uid=ny&idx_side=-234" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=899&idx_id=899&uid=ny&idx_side=-234
This may be brother James in prison in 1865, birthplace given as Grimstad and age as 28:
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=2&filnamn=f60301&gardpostnr=9&personpostnr=453&merk=453#ovre
James is probably still alive in April 1870 as he and R. Wilson are surety / bondsmen for sister/ daughter Margarethe's marriage.
4. Margrethe Wilson b. 11 Dec 1841 ?Oiestad or Christiansand?
Her marriage to Abraham Schlytter, #18:
Source information: Vest-Agder county, Kristiansand, Parish register (official) nr. A 15 (1867-1880), Marriage records 1870, page 383.
Permanent pagelink: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6178&idx_id=6178&uid=ny&idx_side=-387" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6178&idx_id=6178&uid=ny&idx_side=-387
Margarethe Schlytter in the 1900 Norwegian census, living in Kristiania:
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=5&filnamn=f00301&gardpostnr=7078&personpostnr=190509&merk=190509#ovre
Margrete Schlytter 1910:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036392056603
There are 2 Margrethe / Magda Schlytter in Oslo in 1900 & 1910 but the links are for the one b. in Christiansand.
5. John Wilson (or Karl Johan Wilson?) b. 22 Dec 1844 Christiansand.
John Wilson b. Christiansand confirmation #19:
Kildeinformasjon: Vest-Agder fylke, Kristiansand, Ministerialbok nr. A 14 (1852-1867), Konfirmerte 1859, side 272.
Permanent sidelenke: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=900&idx_id=900&uid=ny&idx_side=-266" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=900&idx_id=900&uid=ny&idx_side=-266
John married 20 Aug 1876 in Eiker, Buskerud to Ingeborg Knutsdtr. She was born in Kongsberg 29 Dec 1856. From memory, John is still alive in 1900 but died before the 1910 census.
Jon Wilson's death #7:
Kildeinformasjon: Buskerud fylke, Nedre Eiker, Klokkerbok nr. 3 (1896-1905), Døde og begravede 1904, side 565-566.
Permanent sidelenke: www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5862&idx_id=5862&uid=ny&idx_side=-284" target="_blank">http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5862&idx_id=5862&uid=ny&idx_side=-284
6. Ole Tolbert Wilsonb. 15 Oct 1850 Kristiansand
Ingeborg Marie Wilson's death is found in the Norway Burials database at www.familysearch.org. She d. 30 Nov 1865, was buried 7 Dec 1865 in Kristiansand, Vest Agder. Her age was given as 51 with birthyear estimated at 1814, husband in Rolf Wilson.
I haven't been able to find the fate of Clemmet Johannes Wilson. His birth year matches 1834 with official baptism in June 1835 but exact birthdate is not a match. No sign of an Olson. I haven't found his confirmation or a death record. The family does have connections to both Kristiansand & Christiania, but Clemmet was not born in either place. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 30/05/2012 19:07:51 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2012 : 01:49:05
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Wow - thank you so much for all the work you did on this family!!
Yes, I see what you mean, that of the children in this family, Clemmet would have to be Charles.
If the birth date given in America is wrong, then it will be extremely hard to "see" the right person in Norway. As it is Clemmet cannot be identified as Charles.The fact that you have developed the information for the rest of the family is very important then, and helpful, for if one of these siblings is found in the life of Charles in Brooklyn, then that would be a very strong clue. John seems to have spent all his life in Norway.
Although Clemmet himself is not born in Christiansand, still the youngest children are born there - the family has moved there - and so an immigrant in America could say he is "from Christiansand."
This is worth following up, looking at the American connections.
I do still think the strongest possibility is a boy named Carl Johan Olsen (or similar Norwegian equivalent for Charles) - I am giving weight to the family's oral history.
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2012 : 02:14:04
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While not complete Ancestry.com does have some Norwegian birth records indexed. Here is a list of Carl Johan b 1834 +/-2 father named Ole.
Carl Johan 3 sep 1832 Holand, Akershus, Norway Ole Gulbrandsen
Carl Johan Frederik 16 sep 1832 Oslo, Akershus, Norway Ole Christian Lund
Carl Johan 20 des 1834 (20 Dec 1834) Kongsberg, Buskerud, Norway Ole Olsen
Carl Johan 15 okt 1834 (15 Oct 1834) Beistad, Nord-Trondelag, Norway Ole Andreas Songestad
Carl Johan 13 mar 1834 Oslo, Akershus, Norway Ole Jonsen
Carl Johan Abt. 1835 Heroy, Nordland, Norway Ole Andersen |
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JackWilson
Junior member
Philippines
62 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2012 : 03:53:49
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I am so blessed by such wonderful people helping with this. I can't even say helping, it should be doing as I have not been able to do anything on it.
I am overwhelmed with the amount of work and research all of you have provided. My only concern is, the more I see that you discovered, the further away I get. I am afraid that I would need a considerable amount of information concerning Charles before I could hope to find his family.
Other that the mysterious James Robinson, he apparently came here alone.
I believe I have a good shot at his birth date being June but that is really it.
Even if we searched all the records, All we could match is possible names, Charles,Klaus,Karl, Vilson,Wilson,Oleson,Ole...you get the idea.
I don't want to be negative because this has been driving me nuts since I started researching about twenty years ago.
The only nat. record that might be his is-This is the only one that might be his in the Eastern District:Wilson Charles 1899 19 363 W425
Which being in the Philippines is hard to see but that is if he was really naturalized. How many people just told the census take they were for whatever reason?
If someone could shine a different light on this I would appreciate it.
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
While not complete Ancestry.com does have some Norwegian birth records indexed. Here is a list of Carl Johan b 1834 +/-2 father named Ole.
Carl Johan 3 sep 1832 Holand, Akershus, Norway Ole Gulbrandsen
Carl Johan Frederik 16 sep 1832 Oslo, Akershus, Norway Ole Christian Lund
Carl Johan 20 des 1834 (20 Dec 1834) Kongsberg, Buskerud, Norway Ole Olsen
Carl Johan 15 okt 1834 (15 Oct 1834) Beistad, Nord-Trondelag, Norway Ole Andreas Songestad
Carl Johan 13 mar 1834 Oslo, Akershus, Norway Ole Jonsen
Carl Johan Abt. 1835 Heroy, Nordland, Norway Ole Andersen
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2012 : 04:22:49
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[quote]Originally posted by JackWilson
Other that the mysterious James Robinson, he apparently came here alone.
[quote]
James Robinson? I don't think this name has been mentioned before... |
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