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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
 Posted - 26/11/2003 : 21:08:28
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In trying to track down information on the death of Kristain Larsen in Rygge, I find myself "in-extemis ." I found and signed up for a service by DIS-Norge called Slektsforskerbasen. I have a user password, etc but everything is in Norwegian, Somehow, I have become a research geneologist! Queries are coming from Australia, USA, etc. I don't even know what this service is!!
I also found a <rootsweb.com> service calles NOR-OSTFOLD-L Archives (supported by Ancestory.com). This site looks very interesting with lots of nav bars to Rygge museum, Rygge church records, etc. The site is a mix of Norwegian and English. I have some complex instructions for navigating it, but my computer does not understand them.
A couple of other neat words such as "Slekshistorielag" have surfaced.
Can anyone help me get off this shoal so I can continue my "voyage" - or should I just abandon ship?
Also, if some kind soul could find me a good Norwegian-English, English-Norwegian dictionary and mail it to me, I would be most obliged and would send reimbursement. 
Med vennlig hilsen. Jim |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2003 : 23:06:06
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Hi Jim
It will be no problem for me to get you a dictionary, but you can also get them from Amazon.com, there might be more for you to choose from. Let me know if you want me to send you one.
The DIS-Norge database you signed up with is kind of an exchange service: you send them a gedcom file - it is included in the database - people search for names - they get hits from the information you submitted - they get contact information for you so that you can exchange information.
My advice is to check the Rygge church records first, if you want I will get the film for you! |
Børge Solem |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2003 : 22:55:01
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For Børge - Thanks for pulling me into this century. I buy books on-line all the time. Thinking of the dictionary, all I had was an image of the good shops on Karl Johans Gate. I have one enroute.
When you have a moment, tell me what is involved on my part re: reading the film you mentioned. I am most determined to find what happened to Mr. Kristian Larsen. I will be off-line until 12/10.
Hilsen. Jim |
Edited by - James E Heg on 30/11/2003 22:56:16 |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2003 : 23:05:06
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| Jim, I sent a request to the library for the film(s) a few days ago. I expect to hear back from them soon, I'll let you know if they can provide them as soon as I get their reply. |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2003 : 22:43:40
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I think we'll get you off ground and refloated again soon. The films were available through inter library loan here and I have ordered them.  |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2003 : 18:30:58
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Hi Jim
I have now looked through the Rygge films, and the mystery is not becoming smaller. In looking through burial records 1814 - 1851, I was not able to find Kristian Larsen listed. What makes it even stranger is that I found Marthe Hansdatter Skoven and her son Martin Christiansen leaving for Wisconsin in the out-migration list. So we knew that, as we have already found them on the passenger list - but - Marthe is listed as "konen" which was used for married women, not as expected "enken" as was used for widows". I checked the other listings and they seam to use the "titles" consequently. This suggests that Kristian Larsen was still living when Marthe and Martin departed in 1843. Now se this scan:
Another interesting detail I found, was that in 1836 Martin Christiansen was confirmed, He and his parents Christian and Martha was then listed as "Schougen":
- Sønne Helene Christiansdatter was baptized on April 28 1816 (born April 21), they were called "Skaugen".
- Martin Christiansen was born September 27 1820, baptized Oct 8, name "Otterstad"
- Lars Christiansen was confirmed in 1923, name "Otterstad"
- Hans Christiansen was born August 2 1826, baptized Aug. 20, name "Skauen"
- Sønni Helene Christiansdatter confirmed 1831, name "Schauen"
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Edited by - Borge on 09/12/2003 23:21:55 |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 23:56:53
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Børge - Tusen Takk for your hard work. One reason you should not put your ship aground is that, just before you are working off, along comes a springflo and you are worse off than before!
Where do we go from here - to the jail records? This is indeed a mystery. Especially since Marthe and Marthin arrive in NY aboard JOHANNA and Marthe is never heard from again, despite all the research that has been done on The Even Heg family in Wisconsin. It is quite possible that she died in one of the early plagues that swept the Muskego area.
In the 1850 Wisconsin census Marthin Christiansen and his brother Hans Christiansen (EMILIE #20) are listed together, but no Marthe. The boys are found again in the 1860 census as Martin Wood and Hans Wood. In 1867 or '68 Martin Wood was killed by Indians.
It would help a great deal if these people could have decided what their names were. I assume (hate that word!) that Scougen, Skaugen, Skoven, Skauen, etc. are all variations of the same Norwegian word meaning Wood. The Otterstad comes from the farm where Hans Christian Pedersen lived in 1801. I am going to have to sort all these folks out again - your liatings against the data I had, etc.
When I worked in Washington, DC there was a saying, "If you want a friend, buy a dog!" Now i am thinking, "If you need a hobby, take up rock hunting!"
Again, thank you for all your good help. Warm regards. Jim |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 13/12/2003 : 00:15:50
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Is it possible that Matha returned back to Norway to keep up her life with her husband? I could always try to get the Rygge church records covering the years up to 1865, maybe there will be some interesting information in them. Or maybe, if you prefer, I could send you a load of Norwegian granite, or an Elghund  |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2003 : 23:55:51
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Børge - You are too kind, but the dog would cost me a wife, whom I hold most dear, and I have no room to stow the granite.
Do you suppose we are looking for the wrong name? Considering all the variations of Skaugen you turned up, and how easily Even Hansen Heg lost the Hansen, perhaps we should be looking for a Kristian (or Christian) Skaugen (or variation). Marte emmigrated as Skaugen as did her son, Marthin. The first we found on the pass lists (EMILIE) came as Christensen and Christensdtr. Then there is Carla's finding that the their oldest son, Lars (Kristians??), was living on the Skaugen farm in 1865. My original info has Kristian Larsen (it is Larson in my original) dying on 16 February 1860 (no source info).
Perhaps this info from the 1801 Rygge census is relevant:
Lars Christiansen Mand 45 Givt 1ste gg Husmand med jord
Mari Neilsdtr Hans Kone 45 Givt 1ste gg
Christian Larsen Hans søn 16 (is this our man?)
Anne Larsdtr Hans svigermoder 83 Enke 2den gg Nyder almisse af sognet K 462
Ragnild Nielsdtr Hans svigersøster 48 Ugivt Nærer sig ved binden og spinden.
It seems to me that this info refers to Hans Christian Pedersen, but it is separated from his family in the census.
I think I will have an aquavit with a beer chaser - as Tore Gjelsvig taught me.  Regards. Jim |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 15/12/2003 : 00:40:41
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Jim
I'll tell the dog the good news, and the "fjelds" around here will have to stay for a while longer.
When it comes to names in old documents you never know what you'll find. When an official was going to make a note about something, he would ask someone for the information - like "what is your name?" - he would then write what he thought he had heard - and if he was a minister from Denmark, or what ever, the way he wrote it would be influenced by his dialect or language. The minister in those days actually owned (i.e, paid for) the books them selves, and wrote them in a way that suited their needs. This is probably the main reason for all these variations of names. Then when the Norwegian emigrants came to America, it became even worse for the officials to make the right spellings in the records, meaning you should expect everything.
I think the info you have about Kristian Larsen's death is probably correct. At least we have not been able to prove that it is wrong. I will get the records to see if it can be confirmed. |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2004 : 14:59:39
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Hei
I was reading through the Rygge book "Gårder og Slekter" today to se what kind of information it had on Kristian Larsen.
It says that the farm "Skogen" was actually a part of the farm "Otterstad" (vestre), divided from "Otterstad" in 1783. In 1790 the part "Sisselmyren" was divided from the farm "Nærum" and added to "Skogen" It was Lars Christensen Otterstad (b. 1756) who was given Skogen by his parents and siblings in 1783. Lars Christensen had been married to his cousin Marie Nilsdatter Nærum (b. 1785) in 1783. Their son Christian Larsen Skogen (b. June 12, 1785) was married to Marthe Hansdatter Otterstadødegaard (b. Apr. 8, 1786).
Hans Christian Pedersen Kure (b. 1743) bought Otterstadødegaard in 1770. He added more to the farm later. Hans Kure was married to Sønni Sørensdatter Opstad in 1771. Their children were:
Birthe Marie Hansdatter b. 1773
Søren Hansen 1775 (took over the farm from his father)
Peder Hansen b. 1778
Nils Hansen b. 1786
Marthe Hansdatter b. 1786 married Christian Larsen Skogen
Even Hansen b. 1789 (he bought Otterstadmyren, then moved to Hurum in 1824, was at Heg in Lier 1828)
Christian Larsen Skogen sold the Skogen farm for 500 spd. in 1843 to Søren Hansen Otterstadødegaarden, Martha Hansdatter's brother. Søren Hansen sold the Skogen farm for 520 spd. to Lars Christiansen Skogen (b. 1808) in 1848. He was a gunsmith. On January 20, 1860 Lars Christiansen Skogen was given all his father's (Christian Larsen Skogen) possessions in return for taking care of him the rest of his life. Christian Larsen Skogen dies shortly after, on February 16, 1860. The other information about Marthe and Martin going to Wisconsin in 1843 is the same as we have found before, no information about where and when Marthe died. |
Børge Solem |
Edited by - Borge on 31/01/2004 21:24:02 |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2004 : 20:55:18
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Tusen Takk Børge - That information is just fantastic! I am quietly pleased that that the Norwegian names sometimes confuse even you In the last para. of your post do you not mean, "Marhe Hansdtrs brother Søren Hansen ---"?
A likely scenario is that the family talked about emmigrating when Even Hansen was putting his group together. Marthe wanted to go and her husband did not. Two stubborn Norwegians!  So, they decided to split (very uncommon in htise days). Now we have to imagine why two of the kids were sent with Even Heg's party and why the next year Marthe set off with another son. I recall that Lars was the oldest child and he probably had some personal input and decided to stay with his father. I think we will find Marthe in the Even Heg plot at the cemetery in Waterford, WI.
At any rate it will be some fun to present this info to Vesterheim and NAHA.
Thank you again. Did you get my back-channel e-mail the other day? Hilsen fra Jim |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2004 : 21:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by James E Heg
Tusen Takk Børge - That information is just fantastic! I am quietly pleased that that the Norwegian names sometimes confuse even you In the last para. of your post do you not mean, "Marhe Hansdtrs brother Søren Hansen ---"?
Ooops, you are right, it's corrected now!
quote:
A likely scenario is that the family talked about emmigrating when Even Hansen was putting his group together. Marthe wanted to go and her husband did not. Two stubborn Norwegians! So, they decided to split (very uncommon in htise days). Now we have to imagine why two of the kids were sent with Even Heg's party and why the next year Marthe set off with another son. I recall that Lars was the oldest child and he probably had some personal input and decided to stay with his father. I think we will find Marthe in the Even Heg plot at the cemetery in Waterford, WI.
Or it could be a good way to get divorced without making too much hullabaloo about it in those days 
quote:
Thank you again. Did you get my back-channel e-mail the other day? Hilsen fra Jim
No...I did not get it, but my mailbox has been flowed with hundreds of virus infected messages lately, and it's been quite some job trying to delete all the spam and viruses. My virus protection program is howling like an old steam engine all day long. I may have deleted it by accident. |
Børge Solem |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2004 : 22:33:15
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| Børge - I sent it to the webmaster address. I will resend to the other address. And thanks again Jim |
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James E Heg
Member of honor
USA
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2004 : 21:59:04
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For Børge - I am now off the beach and moving under all plain sail. thanks to your perseverence. Before I set the stuns'ls I would like to clear the decks a bit. I do not like to post geneological information w/o providing sources. Can you translate "Gårder og Slekter" for me? That was a veritable mine of information! Where is Harum? What does Otterstadmyren mean in the context of all those farm divisions and integrations?
In your 8 December post you say, "now see this scan." I have copied it, enlarged it, studied it, but can retrieve no useful info.
The 1801 Rygge census shows Søren and Peder Hansen as being in the Army. Was compulsory military service in force at that time?
Can you tell me the significance (if any) of the people I listed in my 14 December post? I now note that in the Rygge census these people are not separated from the Hans Christian Pedersen group, though they were in my original data.
With respect to the "split" between Marthe and Kristian Larsen, it seems possible that religion was at the root of it . Since Even Hansen becams a very strong supporter of Haugianism, he probably convinced Marhe and invited the Kristian Larsen family to join his emigration group. That could have caused the "dustup" and would account for the two of their children on the voyage with the Heg party in 1841, with Marhte and another son coming in 1842.
The book, "Gårder og Slekter" seems very similar to my Lier book. It mostly covers land transfers, livestock inventories and the like from about 1775 to 1950, under various headings of BRUKERE. The Even Hansen Heg info appears in a section entitled "Matrikkelgården Store-Valle. - Gnr 29" Much later there is a section entitled "GRETTE" that contains 7 or 8 pages and subsections about "Hegg"
I ask this because I do not want you to run out of things to do Hilsen. Jim |
Edited by - James E Heg on 02/02/2004 22:01:35 |
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Knut
New on board
Norway
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 17:58:06
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Hi James.
Christian Larsen Skogens ancestors belongs to e well known family, the Engelsvigenfamily with roots at least back to 1300.
The Engelsvigen family has been discussed some times in Norsk Slekstshistorisk Forenings magazin. Homepage: www.genealogi.no
I can send you the ancestors of :
Elen Larsdoughter Skogenborn 1840, married 1867 to Theodor Larsen born 1841. This is 7 pages with her ancestors, her 15 ggfather.
If you want it send me your postadress.
Knut Thorvaldsen |
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Hard Aground
