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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2003 : 17:44:20
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I had put out a posting last year, but now have some additional information about my Great Grandfather Carl Andersen. Family word of mouth had him as a sea captain, but believe him to be some type of seaman.
Carl was born in Aust Agder - froland area in 1856. He had 2 older brothers Kittel and Schelluf and a sister Maren. He emigrated to the US in 1888 and became a citizen of the US in 1893 living in Elizabeth Port, New Jersey. He died in 1930.
I was recently looking at some old family photos in which my Great Grandmother (hanna or johanna) was in one photo done by Brom, Barnes and Bell in Liverpool (Photograhers to the Queen). . Then I have another photo of her done by Alexander Asnon in Elizabeth, New Jersey....and she looks the same - so timing of when the photos were taken are not far apart (so would have to be around 1888 or so).
Problem is I don't know much about my Great Grandmother as I am even guessing what her name was... I have found some ship registers that show a Carl Andersen on the Le Louisiana in 1881 out of Hampshire Southampton....but that is about it.
Is there a way to find any records that could tie him to england/his wifes maiden name, or how they made it to the US? Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Bob Anderson |
Robert Anderson |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 19:35:34
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Hi Bob,
I guess you are aware of the census, but anyway; here he is in 1865: click here
He lives on the farm Bie ytre in Fjære parish, Aust-Agder. It's actually just outside my door... 
Jan
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 21:15:39
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Hello Jan,
Thank you for your response....That is about the best info I have. The family farm I believe was Hurv. Carl's father was Anders Kittelsen Hurv. Would that be accurate?
If there is any way you have a digital camera and could shoot me a picture of the area I would love it.
I hope to take my wife and child there some day.
I have a distant relative Per Andersen that I connected with who lived in Arendal. Unfortunately I have not heard from him in 9 months or so...
Let me know if you can tell me anything else about the farm, or family or anything...
Thank you.
Bob Andersen |
Robert Anderson |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 00:54:41
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Hi Bob,
I can make you a photo of the area if you want...
In the meantime; there is a lot of pictures of the neighbourhood here.
The Bie area is just a few hundred meters outside the city centre of Grimstad.
I'm not sure of the exact location of the Bie ytre farm, but it should be just behind the church on this picture.
There is one or two farms in the Bie area now, but the rest is densely built-up area, and a place called Bie Appartement & Feriesenter (camping resort).
ps: If you plan to visit the area, you should really go in July or August...! The whole southern coast of Norway are then filled (in a nice way ), with people, and the weather is at the best.
Jan |
Edited by - jwiborg on 03/12/2003 01:00:28 |
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 15:05:25
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Jan,
This is the first time I had heard of the name Bie ytre farm.
Is that the same as the Hurv farm?
If you have a chance to take a pic of area that would be great...If not I understand....
Have you lived there your whole life? |
Robert Anderson |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 16:08:43
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Hi,
the 1865 census shows them living on the Bie Ytre farm in Fjære parish, now Grimstad municipality.
The Hurv farm (nowadays called Horv) is in Froland, a muncipality which have borders to Grimstad and Arendal. Map of Aust Agder county
Where did you find the information about them living on the Hurv farm?
The 1965-census shows that both Carls parents are born in Froland parish. Carls oldest brother Kiddel (born ca 1841) is also born in Froland, that could very well be on the Hurv farm. But his brother Schjelluf (born ca. 1844), his sister Maren (born ca. 1847) and Carl himself (born 1856), are all born in Fjære parish (ie. Grimstad).
From this; I would guess that Anders Kiddelsen sold the Hurv farm and bought Bie ytre between 1841-1844....
Btw; both Kiddel and Schjelluf are very strange names, even in Norwegian... 
Jan
ps: I have not lived here for long, only since '95... |
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 18:56:16
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Hi Jan,
Now I am really confused....
From what I can tell from other "family tree" documents I have of the family came from the farm Hurv.
In looking at the 1801 Census - Anders (Carl's father) is not listed (maybe since that is the year he would have been born).
I have looked at the 1801 census, and those names show up on the family tree docs I have....I do see a Kiddel Skiøllufsen at 1 year old in 1801 which I believe to be Anders brother. I do not have the other documents with me at this time, but will look at them this evening.
What would make him sell the farm Hurv? Is Bie farm listed any earlier? I did not see it.
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Robert Anderson |
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Brining
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
868 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 21:29:39
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Hi Bob The Hurv farm may or may not have been "owned" by the family, they may have rented it. This site Click Here has some pretty good explainations on farms in Norway. It is towards the bottom of the page. Also the farms were divided amoung the children so it could be that there was not enough workable land to support a family if there were lots of children to divide the land between.
There is a christening record for Carl on the LDS Click Here
As to information on his wife/marriage. Have you found him in the US census records? Some years give how long married (I can't remember which) country of origin (was his wife from England or Norway). Knowing that information might help know where to search. Also have you gotten copies of birth certificates of their children and death certificates? They also can be a good source of information.
The LDS has Norway parish records on microfilm. You might be able to find some information on Carl in Fjære parish like when he left, where he moved to. Even though he was on a ship in the 1881 English census he may have still lived in Norway.
If there are any bygdebok's for Fjære or Froland there might be some information in them.
Carla |
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thelebrity
Senior member
Norway
234 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 23:53:05
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| Kiddel may sound unusual, but I think it's just this spesific spelling that is strange. Kiddel was usually spelled Kittel, and is what today is known as K(j)etil. Schjelluf though is unusual. Only nine people was named Schelluf (with various spellings in 1900. ) All of them were born in Aust Agder. |
Per Helge Seglsten |
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2003 : 19:53:58
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I am thinking that the spellings of Schelluf and Kiddel may have been created after the fact. I have family records with Shjelluf and Kittel etc.
However, the farm. How can I find out if they owned the "Hurv" farm via leased it or if Anders Kittelsen purchased/leased the Bie farm. The farm information on that link was helpful. It makes sense why Anders Kittelsen my Great - Great Grandfather did not stay on the Hurv farm.
I am hoping to track down my Great Grandmothers name from my Grandfather's birth certificate. He was born here in the US, but need to find out on what ship my great grandfather worked on. My understanding is that if he came over on a Norweg. Merchant ship - it may be difficult to figure out.
Bob |
Robert Anderson |
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Brining
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
868 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2003 : 04:10:48
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Hi Bob In the 1865 census Anders is listed as Husmand uden Jord which means renter without land. John Follesdal's site has a lot of articles that are helpful. Click on Links to External Resources below to find a link to his site.
Your best bet on finding out about the Hurv farm is in the Bygdebøker for Froland. UND Grand Forks has one listed Click Here. They may be available through inter library loan. Also the University of Minnesota has it Click Here
There are articles on bygdebøker at Follesdal's site also.
Carla |
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 00:11:26
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Thank you for the information. Would a "renter without land" mean that he did not farm that land or just that he did not own the land?
Also, can anyone tell me if there are listings of sailors that worked on merchant ships? I might have found a link between my Great Grandfather and the 1881 census in the UK. There are 2 Carl Andersen from Norway - one on the La Louisiana, and another that was on the Cort Adelear. Both merchant ships, but can not find details on those ships. Any assistance would be apprecitated. The ships were in Cheshire and Southampton.
I do have a picture of my Great Grandmother that was taken in Liverpool, which makes me think there is the connection with Carl being in England.
Thanks again!
Bob |
Robert Anderson |
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Brining
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
868 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 05:59:48
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He was probably was not a farmer. In the 1875 census Anders is listed as Hugstmand (logger??) og Kjører (driver) and his son Kittel is Inderst Skibstømmermand, lodger and ships carpenter.
As to listings of sailors, Borges reply to your earlier post has the best information. quote:
If you think he lived in Grimstad, or near there, here are the possible registers of sailors to check (from my updated article about the inscription of sailors:
GRIMSTAD KRETS:
V-21 Hovedrulle no. 1-766 1860-1869 Microfilmed
V-22 Hovedrulle no. 1-768 1868-1870 Microfilmed
V-23 Hovedrulle no. 769-1528 1870-1877 Microfilmed
V-29 Skipper- and styrmannsrulle (captains & mates) 1860-1868
http://www.norwayheritage.com/ships/sailors.htm#grimstad
Børge Solem
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 14:46:54
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What is the best way to look at Microfilm when not in Norway?
Also, thank you for translating their occupations. I have the 1920 Census of Carl Andersen in the US and it shows him as a ships carpenter as well. In fact, I believe he worked on the first submarines that John Holland produced in Elizabethport, NJ. |
Robert Anderson |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 19:25:53
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Hi Bob,
I have had time to go to the library now, and I rented the farmbook for Froland.
Volume II contains history about the Hurv farm.
Actually there are several farms called Hurv in the area, and I found Carls parents on one of them:
- Anders Kittelsen Hurv, born 1803, married 1839 to
- Anne Torine Schellufsdatter Messel born 1814.
Children: Kittel born 1840. Only Kittel of the children is mentioned, Carl and the other siblings was not listed.
The authors of the Froland history book writes: "We don't know what happened to this family".
The book is from 1989, and I guess they did not search outside the Froland borders. If so; they would have found Anders & wife on Bie Ytre farm, with the online 1865-census...
Anders Kittelsen Hurv was never the owner of the Hurv farm.
The farm was owned by Anders' father Kidel Andersen Hurv, (1759-1846).
Kidel Andersen Hurv was married twice:
- 1) Married 1793 to: Berthe Åselsdatter Ø. Froland (1772-1799)
- 2) Married 1802 to: Mari Ericsdatter Mjåvatn (1781-1855)
Kidel's children:- Marte, born 1795, married 1812 to Tor Gjeruldsen Mjølhus
- Åsulf, born 1799, married 1821 to Anne Samuelsdatter Messel
- Anders, born 1803 ("your" Anders)
- Erik, born 1805, dead 1807
- Berte, born 1808, married 1820 to Gjeruld Samuelsen Messel
- Marte, born 1810, married 1841 to Peder Skjellulfsen Messel
- Erik, born 1813, married 1844 to Susanne Kittelsdatter Hurv, born 1825, children: Kittel b. 1844
- Kittel born 1817, dead 1819
It says that Kidel Andersen Hurv (like many other owners of the Hurv farm) had to mortgage the farm, movable property and cattle, seversal times to retailers/merchants in Arendal and Froland.
Kidel and wife finally sold the farm in 1841 to Skjelluf Jensen Hurv for 400 spd.
They reserved the rights to live on the farm for as long as they lived.
Also; two of the sons of Kidel lived here for a time after they got married.
The two sons were "your" Anders Kittelsen, born 1803 and Erich Kittelsen, born 1813.
Kittel Andersen Hurv's (1759-1846) parents was:- Anders Rasmussen Hurv (1717-1795), married 1749 to
- Berte Kittelsdatter Hurv (1728-1813).
Anders Rasmussen Hurv's parents was:- Rasmus Olsen Oveland (1683-1730) and
- Gunnild Joensdatter (? - ? )
Rasmus Olsen Oveland's (1683-1730) father was:
- Ole Kristoffersen Oveland, dead ca 1704
Jan
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Edited by - jwiborg on 11/12/2003 23:10:08 |
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randerson63
Starting member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2003 : 20:35:00
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Jan,
THANK YOU SO MUCH! Although I have some "family tree" info, non-specifically about the farm or what happened etc.
I had read that many farmers had to mortgage the farms to live.
I wish I had access to information like that as well as microfilm etc.
If you see the librarian - tell them you have some information about the family!
You don't know how much I appreciate you doing that!
I had sent a note to the Grimstad newspaper over a year ago asking if they could direct me to find info about the farm...They were so nice, they actually placed a notice in the newspaper about my request.
I had a distant cousin Per Andersen contact me, who at the time lived in Arendale.
The people in Grimstad are the BEST! |
Robert Anderson |
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Carl Andersen
