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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
 Posted - 23/09/2004 : 21:09:24
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Hello -
This has proved harder than it seemed it should be.
We have a great grandmather, Katherine Alice Andersen. From her marriage certificate she was born 11/10/1897. It could be October 11 or November 10 - the grooms birthday doesn't help resolve this issue.
Again from the marriage certificate, she was from Anundal, N. I take that to be Arendel, Norway. I could be wrong.
They were married October 12, 1918 in NYC when she was about 21 years old so she emigrated sometime prior to that.
I have searched the Norway website to no avail. The changing of the last name has me very confused and I understand that the custom was changing in the 1890s.
So, if someone can take pity on me and shed some light on the matter I would appreciate it. My goal is to identify her parents and siblings.
Contact me directly if you wish (emashma1@nycap.rr.com).
Ed
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 23/09/2004 : 22:47:47
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If she married in New York City - I think we could assume that she arrived at that port when she immigrated. Have you checked the Ellis Island passenger arrival records? The records of arrivals after about 1903 or 1906 started to contain quite a few details about each person. That record might give you the additional clues that you need to clarify that location in Norway, etc.
The 1920 or 1920 US census enumeration might help you narrow down the year of arrival. |
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askeroi
Senior member
Norway
299 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2004 : 11:28:59
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As far as I can see there's no place called Anundal in Norway. But there are lots of places simular enough to be a better guess than Arendal. Arendal is a city, and even as late as around her birth year most of the norwegian population lived in the country.
There are no Katherine Alice born about 1897 in the 1900 cencus any place in Norway (in any spelling I can think of). But there are quite a few Katherine's (in various spellings) and even som Alice's, but none fitting the birth place as far as I can see.
Andersen (or Andersdatter) is to no help as that's extremely common.
And, she could have emmigrated as a child with her parents before 1900 and not be in the cencus at all. I'm afraid you'll have to find her arrival, as Hopkins say, to learn anything about her background in Norway.
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askeroi |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2004 : 15:46:01
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You posted also on the genealogy.com message boards and there you shared that her husband's name was John MacLellan and they lived in Brooklyn, NY until she died in the early 1920s.
From that piece of info the household of John MacLellan can be looked up in the 1920 US census. I'm having to assume that John MacLellan was born in New York state and would be 27 years old on the 8th or 9th of January 1920 (when the census was taken for that page). The John MacLellan I see on that census is married to a woman born in Norway about 22 years earlier - but in this handwriting her name looks like either Alvida or Arvida and her year of immigration might be incomplete on the form. The saving grace to the census is that the John's mother-in-law and uncle-in-law are living with the family. The mother-in-law is called Sussie Thorvaldsen (she immigrated in 1904?) and the uncle's last name is Larsen (he immigrated in 1906). Source: US National Archives Microfilm Series: T625 Roll: 1147 Page: 9
So the root of the problem is most likely that you've known her by a name used in the US and not matching her original name in Norway.
YES! Sussie Thorvaldsen appears in the 1900 Norwegian census living in Arendal, name there spelled a bit differently too ( things are almost never spelled exact ly as you expect them). She is a widow and has a daughter born about 1897 by the name of Katinka! I can see how a Katinka might be later called Katherine!
http://www.rhd.uit.no/ftsoek/ftsoek.asp?kommando=bosted&ftaar=1900&spraak=engelsk_britisk&kommnr=0903&kretsnr=013&bostnr=0009&leilnr=01
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 27/09/2004 : 15:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins
You posted also on the genealogy.com message boards and there you shared that her husband's name was John MacLellan and they lived in Brooklyn, NY until she died in the early 1920s.
From that piece of info the household of John MacLellan can be looked up in the 1920 US census. I'm having to assume that John MacLellan was born in New York state and would be 27 years old on the 8th or 9th of January 1920 (when the census was taken for that page). The John MacLellan I see on that census is married to a woman born in Norway about 22 years earlier - but in this handwriting her name looks like either Alvida or Arvida and her year of immigration might be incomplete on the form. The saving grace to the census is that the John's (grand) mother-in-law and uncle-in-law are living with the family. The mother-in-law is called Sussie Thorvaldsen (she immigrated in 1904?) and the uncle's last name is Larsen (he immigrated in 1906). Source: US National Archives Microfilm Series: T625 Roll: 1147 Page: 9
So the root of the problem is most likely that you've known her by a name used in the US and not matching her original name in Norway.
YES! Sussie Thorvaldsen appears in the 1900 Norwegian census living in Arendal, name there spelled a bit differently too ( things are almost never spelled exact ly as you expect them). She is a widow and has a daughter born about 1897 by the name of Katinka! I can see how a Katinka might be later called Katherine!
http://www.rhd.uit.no/ftsoek/ftsoek.asp?kommando=bosted&ftaar=1900&spraak=engelsk_britisk&kommnr=0903&kretsnr=013&bostnr=0009&leilnr=01
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 27/09/2004 : 17:55:04
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My gratitude to Hopkins. That truly is an incredible piece of detective work.
More information I neglected to share here was that Katinka's parents were listed as Charles and Anna Andersen on the marriage records at the church in Brooklyn. I therefore would assume that the Carl Andersen (from NHDC records) is her father.
So now that we know where she came from it should be easy to construct her family tree? Where do I go from here? Anyone want to help me some more?
Thank you Hopkins.
Ed |
Ed |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 28/09/2004 : 15:51:42
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I doubt that is the same Carl Andersen - the 1900 census listed his birthplace as Solum and/or Porsgrunn which are in Telemark, Norway. Thae 1865 census you pointed out was for Sørum in Akershus... In the 1900 census your Carl was a seaman/sailor, his age then being about 41 yrs old. In earlier records he might have been recorded as Karl instead of Carl and we still can't be sure about his last name - was that a true patronymic form or had he 'modernized' to using the same last name his father had used. (An unfortunate naming pattern change in those areas of Norway where earlier influence of 'English' naming patterns was strong, IMHO.) We cannot be sure with this little information.
You'll probably want to look at a microfilm image of the 1920 US census for the John MacLellan household in Brooklyn, New York. I'm limited to looking at a scanned image of that census page - and the dpi is not great enough to make it easy to make out details (example: mother-in-law rather than grandmother-in-law in my first reading). There was an "uncle-in-law" whose name I couldn't clearly read - hopefully you'll be able to read it on the finer detail available in a microfilm copy. I gave you the US National Archives detail to be able to get the right film - I think the corresponding LDS microfilm number would be # 1821147. The census enumeration district in Brooklyn was 124? (very dark in this scanned image)
I would recommend the next step to look in Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway parish church books for the birth and baptism of Katinka/Olvinde? about 1897. That record should list the parent's names, the father's occupation and the names of the baptismal sponsors/witnesses may be interesting to your future research. While you have those church books available, look also for the death of Katinka's mother, and the marriage of Carl and Katinka's mother. A marriage record can list the names of the fathers of each of the bridal couple and usually their place of residence. I have no personal knowledge if the parish records for Arendal are available in any online version - but they would be available on LDS microfilm.
A good 'how-to' for that type of record is available in this collection - http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/articles.html
I've been fascinated with the grandmother - 'Sussie/Susanne/etc'. In the 1900 census she is listed as having been born in "Tromø sogn" which I would assume is Tromøy in Aust-Agder. (Appears to be an island adjacent to the parish area for the city port of Arendal. The last name listed for her in the 1900 census (Thorvildsen) is also very possibly not the patronymic form. But her given name is not terrifically common so in the chuchbook of births/baptisms for Tromøy circa 1840/1841 she might be fairly easy to locate with her parentage information. Her marriage to unknown? - also quite possible to have taken place in Tromøy or Arendal....
There is a 26 yr old Sussanne Lars. born in Tromøy living in Arendal in the 1865 census - could this be Sussie before she married? The last name beginning with Lars. would match what I think I see for the uncle-in-law in 1920 Brooklyn..... This evidence wouldn't be convincing - but it is very interesting!
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=f60903&variabel=0&postnr=1285&fulle=true&spraak=n
I have no ancestry in these particular sections of Norway so I don't already have access to the pertinent parish books or other offline records. The best I can offer is a sample of the type of records search logic that I would apply myself. I hope your research is fun and rewarding!
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 29/09/2004 : 00:46:29
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Thanks Hopkins.
Susanne Thorvaldsen and Alvilde Andersen arrived in New York on May 16, 1904 on the SS United States. And where were they going? To their son-in-law / father's house - Karl Andersen, 106 President Street, Brooklyn, NY!
I'll check some more censuses and get back to you. Thanks for everything.
Ed |
Ed |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 29/09/2004 : 15:37:12
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So we have found her in the 1865 Norway census (maybe),
the 1900 Norway census,
the 1904 Norway emigration list,
the 1904 Ellis Island immigration list,
the 1910 US census,
the 1920 US census.
But we can't find Susanna (Larsen) Thorvaldsen in the 1875 Norway census. This one might be the most helpful. She would be living with her daughter, Anna, the mother of Katherine (Katinka) Alice (Arvida) Andersen?
Thanks.
Ed |
Ed |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 29/09/2004 : 16:19:07
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The online databases for the 1875 Norwegian census are not completed. Many sections of Norway are not included.
That census has been copied to LDS microfilm - but it is just like browsing through the pages any other census - they are available by area but it's still a one line at a time read (with your fingers crossed).
This is why I recommended the church books - events (like baptisms, marriages or deaths) are recorded in chronological order and if you have fairly solid idea that you are in the right area and a good estimate of the date and a name it seems easier. I use them for my families' Norwegian ancestral areas on LDS microfilm and find the major challenges to usually be the possibility of persons with identical or similar names that can confuse me and the occasional area where the person doing the recording during that time period had really "unfriendly" handwriting. |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 29/09/2004 : 19:46:37
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Thank you.
The church records microfilm has been ordered for the Norske Kirke in Arendal. The Lutheran Church didn't have the records for circa 1897. They had records before and after but nothing for about a 10 year period. So let's hope our luck continues.
See you in about three weeks.
Ed |
Ed |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2004 : 21:16:37
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Success!
Alvilde Kathinka Andersen was born in Arendal October 11, 1897 and baptized November 14, 1897.
Father - Karl Andreas Andersen born 1861 from Arendal.
Mother - Anna Suzanne Thorvalsen born 1875 from Arendal
Witnesses - Marie Eriksen, Kristine Knudsen, Martin Thorvaldsen, Peter Tallaksen, Erik Olsen.
Not successful in finding the marriage, Anna's death nor siblings.
I've ordered the microfilms for the year's of Karl's and Anna's births. If the church book indicated in 1897 that they were from Arendal that means they were born and baptized in Arendal?
Thanks.
Ed |
Ed |
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Mashmann
Starting member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 14:21:00
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| I've found Susane Larsen's baptism (dopte) record. I could use some help in reading it. Any volunteers? |
Ed |
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Katherine Alice Andersen, 1897, Arendal
