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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2008 : 22:31:30
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He was born out of wedlock to (bachelor?) Ole Pedersen Selseng (something) & unmarried woman Christi Nielsdatter from Offerdalen in Leirdals (a parith in SF) ????..(2nd child born out of wedlock to her?) Comments in last column, father's 3rd what?
#37 baptism |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 00:07:48
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Leirdals prgj = Lærdal in Sogn & Fjordane
The column to the right is for children born out of wedlock; Who was the Priest's informer?
And it reads: Af de 3de første anførte faddere. From the 3rd first written godparent.
Looks like the informer was Guri Solseng.
It could also read "From the 3 first mentioned godparents", ie Trond, Jens & Guri Solseng.
Jan Peter |
Edited by - jwiborg on 08/04/2008 00:15:58 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 01:23:22
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Like I said before, youz guyz got some great maps! I knew Lærdal was a parish in SF, so filled that part inside of the bracket dealies. The numerous question marks after that were about the words that followed her location.
So then, faddere isn't father? LOL I'm used to seeing "tes something" instead of faddere in baptismal records.
Hopkins, I think you're correct on leiermål, first for him, 2nd for her... may splain why the boy was brought up with his paternal family, instead of his maternal family.
You guys are the best! Thank you for all of your help. |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 03:55:47
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Remember that many of your audience here are Norwegians and not necessarily familiar with American slang like "splain" and "guyz".
Good list of translated Norwegian words for your use (including faddere)-
http://home.online.no/~otjoerge/files/word.htm
Good information about translating the formats of Norwegian parish church records during various time periods, many of the basic terms used and understanding how to use the information should be studied at this web site -
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/na20.html
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 06:08:41
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Thank you for the reminder. It was inconsiderate of me to use non-standard English. The English of all of the Norwegians here seems so good, I forgot myself.
I guess that asking people here for help with words, rather than going to the resources you cited was caused by having had poor results there & in other Norwegian-English on-line resources. One on-line source allows one to send notification for words that are missing from their database & I think I notified them for a bunch of locations that I had thought were terms in need of definitions. For quite some time, I thought that Myndig was a place that I just couldn't find on any map & I've wondered who or what is "Boets gjeld" & why everyone owes them money when they die. The words translate to "estate debt", but the translation doesn't say if it's a court cost, grave digging fees or a fee to the minister for services rendered. Along with the translations here, I gain a bit of knowledge of the Norwegian culture that goes along with the terms. With "faddere", I learn that those who've turned in the parents of a child born out of wedlock may indeed stand in as baptismal sponsors, that they're not just neighborhood busybodies out to make trouble for the parents & yes, it was something that I had wondered about.
I think I read the page at the second link about a half dozen times, but my ability to retain terms requires seeing words in context a number of times. I learn the word used for marriages in early records (based on the "***" showing up in preview in the middle of the word, guess that word is no longer used in polite company ) & next thing I know, marriages are under Vigde, which isn't on that handy word list.
While searching for yet another site that could help with some of the terms that I have come across,this site has been very helpful for old Norwegian occupations. |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 13:19:16
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Oh, I understand. I have an unfortunate tendency to use American and southern idioms. They can be hard to explain. (You are on a roll; Let's kick something around; That was a wild goose chase...)
One thing that makes the job of translating from the Norwegian harder for me is the frequent non-standard spelling. I have my well-worn and coffee-stained Norwegian-English dictionary and it has witnessed plenty of "hair-tearing". So I also bought a secondary two-way dictionary and that is sometimes helpful when I think I might "have the gist of it". I could probably be even happier if I could "lay my hands on" an antique Norwegian and/or Danish thesaurus. (Or would I just be "in over my head"?)
This past weekend I was working in documents of an American colony (circa 1680-1700) and was suddenly struck by the non-standard spelling of "Ye ol' English". I now apologise for all the unkind things I've muttered about the early Norwegian documents I've been fortunate enough to struggle with in the past. I'm lucky that they exist at all and are so easily available to me. (But I can't promise that I'll never be muttering at my Norwegian-English dictionary again.)
I hadn't seen your link for those old occupations before - thanks for sharing that. The entire website appears interesting.
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 17:42:49
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Standardization requires a dictionary & the very first English dictionary was published in 1755, by a guy who put it together by himself. It took nearly a century to come out with the first English thesaurus, again, put put together by one guy. Most households had copies of neither, so it's not the least bit shocking to have varied spellings for many words in early documents.
As you swear at non-standard spellings within the Norwegian documents, remember that the alphabet used in them was developed for an entirely different language & the scribe had to come up with a letter combination to approximate a sound. That's how a "T" can become a "K", an "I" can become a "J" & a "V" can be a "W", "U" or even an "F".
Odds are, the earliest Norwegian and/or Danish thesaurus' would have been compiled some time after the documents you're looking at, so they probably wouldn't be as helpful as you might think. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 17:46:44
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I guess Christi Nielsdatter Offerdal was too early getting her second child and too late to formally move into Sogndal, see #3 in 1829 here
her intention is now to find work!
The only Kristi Nielsdatter baptized in Lærdal 1795 (Krist was 34 in 1829) is the fourth from the top on right hand page here
she was from Aardal sogn, born Oct 2, bapt at home Oct 5 which was confirmed in church Oct 18. Her parents were Niels Hansen and Synnøve Olsdatter.
in 1801 Niels Hansen and Synnøve Olsdatter were at Offerdal Indre see 2173 and 2174 here
No Kristi who should have been 5 years is recorded with them!? |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 08/04/2008 18:17:22 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 17:58:58
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Talking about coffe spots Hopkins you should have seen my old dictionary.
Easier online, but more expencive to lose a cup of coffee.
Our languide has changed a lot, most Norwegians, myself including, have big problems in reading the old church books written in Ghotic
At least the names are "understandable".
The engagement records called Trolovelse is also common, the date of the wedding is then mentioned in the last column.
Ask for help, hopefully someone here can give you a helping hand.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 08/04/2008 19:00:32 |
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 18:40:30
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There were two Ole Pedersen's born at Selseng to different parents within a decade of each other. One was baptised in 1801 & the other in 1808. The father of the older Ole was Peder Pedersen, who was at Selseng in the 1801 census. The parents of the Peder baptised in 1808 (Peder Iversen & Maritha Arnesdatter) were at Ølnes in the 1801 census along with her two daughters, one from an earlier marriage & the other born out of wedlock before she married Peder I.
The one that was baptised in 1808 married Ragnhild Tostensdatter on 21 Jun 1831 in Sogndahl & they left for America in 1844 without Peder. I was sent the transcriptions of a couple of letters between Peder O & the family in America into the 20th century, so Peder O probably was the son of the younger Ole P Selseng. Whether or not there was a marriage between his parents, I haven't found any record of it.
In an on-line DB, there was a Johannes Olsen Selsing included as a son of Ole P, with a baptism in the same year ( 1836) as one of the daughters of Ole P & Ragnhild. Johannes moved to America, but I don't think he moved with Ole, Ragnhild & their children, but the parish emigration records in 1844 & 1843 are a bit jumbled. The question, did my Ole have another son, born outside of marriage? Was Johannes the son of the older Ole P at Selseng, as I can't find anything about that older Ole beyond his baptism in 1801?
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 18:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by eibache
I guess Christi Nielsdatter Offerdal was too early getting her second child and too late to formally move into Sogndal, see #3 in 1829 here
her intention is now to find work!
The only Kristi Nielsdatter baptized in Lærdal 1795 (Krist was 34 in 1829) is the fourth from the top on right hand page here
she was from Aardal sogn, born Oct 2, bapt at home Oct 5 which was confirmed in church Oct 18. Her parents were Niels Hansen and Synnøve Olsdatter.
in 1801 Niels Hansen and Synnøve Olsdatter were at Offerdal Indre see 2173 and 2174 here
No Kristi who should have been 5 years is recorded with them!?
A Kari Nilsdatter & her husband Johannes of Offerdal had several children baptised in the same time frame that I was looking at for child of Kristi, so I've kind of assumed she may have been there with her sister when she delivered her second child. The baptism of her older child may give some direction toward her location before that. |
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Holly
Medium member
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 20:36:15
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I've read that the name Anna was so common, many girls named Anne were given a middle name. I can't find the baptsimal record to verify my suspicion...
Found that baptism (have to remember the reversed dates):
Found that baptism
I found a marriage record for Kari Nielsdatter to Johannes Olsen of Offerdahl. Kari was from Wange (VIk)
I found baptisms in an index:
Anders Nielss. 1797 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Arne Nielss. 1794 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Christie Nielsd. 1806 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Ingebrict Nielss. 1810 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Vange
Kari Nielsd. 1800 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Niels Nielss. 1817 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Ole Nielss. 1803 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Peder Nielss. 1793 Niels Peders., Agatha Arned. Wange
Vik prestegjeld
År 1806
Fødselsdato 3.11.1806
Førenamn Christie
Etternamn Nielsd.
Ekte (e) - uekte (u) e
Far Niels Peders.
Far's bustad Wange
Mor Agatha Arned.
Christi Nildatter is found in Hove, Vig in the 1865 census with husband Endre Olsen.
Their marriage took place on 10 6 1829 Endre Olss. Vik Hopperstad ungkar og landvern 1802 Vik Hopperstad 1 Kristi Nilsd. 1807 Vik Vange 1
Not an "Anne" in the bunch, but I found a baptism for a daughter "Agatha" born out of wedlock at Wange to "Anne" in 1827. 26.2.1827
Førenamn Agote
Etternamn Arned.
Ekte (e) - uekte (u) u
Far Arne Nilss. Skaffergaard
Far's bustad Vange
Far's yrke ungkarl
Mor Anna Nielsd.
Merknad Døypt den 1/2-1827. Hopperstad sokn.
The oldest child of Endre Olssen & Christi Nielsdatter, Ole was born out of wedlock on 22.10.1828, Døypt den 2/11-1828. Hopperstad sokn. & I can't find the record.
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Edited by - Holly on 08/04/2008 21:35:49 |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 23:17:19
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Quick question -- if you haven't found the birth/baptismal record for Ole (1828) then where did the dates come from?
Reliable source? |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 23:32:19
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This one?
# 80
Source: Sogn og Fjordane county, Vik, Parish register (official) nr. A 6 (1821-1831), Birth and baptism records 1828, page 89-90.
Jan Peter |
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Peder Olsen Selseng
