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Lionel Young
Starting member
Australia
6 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2011 : 09:30:36
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Wow !!! a giant 'THANK YOU' to everyone for their respective follow ups - I very sincerely appreciate your efforts !!
Where to start - perhaps by explaining 'Albert Edward Hanson' and his Parents are certainly the biggest 'BRICK WALL' I've encountered in my FT research. The major problem we all have with 'Albert' is two-fold, (1) to find a birth date/year/place for 'Albert', and (2) to match him up with his Parents, 'Hans (orJohn) Hanson' & 'Mary Arnison (or Arvison) of Stavanger, Norway. Both of these positions are seeming to be impossible to prove. Without having a Birth and/or Baptism Registration, plus not having the correct date of birth, place. or country, I'm sure you can all understand the extent of the 'problem' we're trying to resolve. Norway is highly likely the correct birth Country, whilst some researchers suggest Sweden may be a possibility - but we cannot find any leads to confirm this.
I have copies of several records relative to Albert, and also I have 2 separate sets of Family History notes put together over the past 50 years or so. These notes are remarkably accurate, given they independently compiled over decades by separate lineages of the Hanson Family in Tasmania, and only came together 2 years ago. Most of what I have, is showing in our extended Famly Tree which is listed on Ancestry.com as 'YOUNG, PACE, NASH, CRAWFORD & OTHERS FT' (Public Family Tree). All are most welcome to look and send return comments.
The London, Eng. Marriage Banns 1754-1921 for Albert's 1st Marriage to Sarah Jones in Stepney, Eng. on 20/11/1852, notes 'John Hanson' as his Father, and a residential address of '18 Bedford Street', (Mile End Old Town, Stepney). Albert's age in 1852 was given as 26, suggesting the birth year was 1826.
Albert first travelled to Australia (Sydney) on the Ship 'Rodney' in 1854, and returned back to the UK, working as part of the Ship's Crew, which is consistent with his lifelong career as a 'Mariner'. The Ship's Register advises Albert's age as 27, and notes a birth year of 1827. The Origin Port for the 'Rodney' was shown as Norway.
Albert's son. also 'Albert Edward Hanson', was born in Stepney on 25/11/1855. Yes, there was yet another 'Albert Edward Hanson' born in Tasmania in 1890 (a Grandson to 'Albert') .
Albert, Sarah, & Albert Jnr emigrated to Australia on the Ship 'Ocean Home' in 1864. They settled in a rural district known as 'Irishtown', near Smithton in North West Tasmania. They had a family of seven children. The Ship's Register notes Albert as being 43, born about 1821.
Albert married 'Elizabeth (Barnett) Welsh' on 21/5/1873 in Melbourne, Aus. (his 1st wife Sarah died at Irishtown in Tasmania, Aus in 28/5/1871. I have a copy of Albert's 2nd Wedding Registration wherein it names Albert's Parents as 'Hans Hanson' & 'Mary Arnison (or Arvison) - (handwritten record is not clear to decipher). 'Hans Hanson' is noted as being a 'Farmer of Stavanger, Norway'.
I have a copy of the handwritten Death Regstration entry (d.10/9/1875 Melbourne, Aus), and the spaces for Albert's Parent's names were marked 'not known' - all other Registrations on that date had the Parent's names listed - cannot understand why that happened, given his Parents were shown on his 2nd Wedding Registration, just 2 years earlier.
I can confess to being the Family Tree on Ancestry.com with the 'Sor Fron, Oppland, Norway' Parents with the connection for 'Albert'. The reason they are listed, was because they are the only Norwegian Parents we could identify with the 'correct names', era, and country, to match with 'Albert'. The responses from several researchers via Ancestry.com has been mixed, with some agreeing, a few not agreeing, but all agreeing its always best to go with what you've got, and progress from there.
So back to 'Albert' was he born in Norway, or somewhere else ? - the living family members here in Tasmania, all say NORWAY.
What year was Albert born ? - The popular 'guess' is 1829, as IT with ties in with his Death Certificate - died 1875, age 46 years.
Who were Albert's Parents ? - The 1852 1st Marriage Banns Record notes 'John Hanson' as his Father. The 1875 2nd Marriage Registration lists 'Hans Hanson' (Farmer) & 'Mary Arnison (or Arvison) as his Parents. ('Hans' in Norwegian translates to 'John' in English) So this confirmation for 'Hans (or Jolhn') is positive.
Where was Albert born ? - NORWAY is the popular belief, and likely at 'STAVANAGER, NORWAY', as noted is his 2nd Marriage Record.
I recall from the Forum list above, 'Kare' queried as to whether we have searched in the UK/England. The answer is a big 'YES', and exhaustively, and also in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark & Germany. However, whilst we have access to a huge number of 'search records', we learn almost daily of new 'search records, either just coming on line, or that can be researched via subscription. We have been down some of these avenues, but no success as yet. Somewhere 'out there' will the answer, hopefully.
Please keep communicating, your contributions are extremely valued.
Lionel
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L Young |
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Kċarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 13:31:14
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Hi.
This familytree must also be taken with a pinch of salt even though it seems quite detailed.
Kċre |
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Karalyn
New on board
Australia
2 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 17:13:12
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Hi
I am also a descendant of Albert Edward Hanson and in contact with Lionel.
Kare, that info probably came from Lionel's tree, but you are right because we have nothing concrete to go by except 2 marriage certificates, 1 which says he was born in Norway and his father was a farmer called John and the second in 1873 which says he was a mariner from Stavanger Norway, was 40 (birth year 1833?) and parents Hans Hanson & Mary Arvison/arnison and a death certificate from 1875 with incomplete information, I believe because his second wife didn't know. There is so much conflicting information we are not certain of anything which makes this task so much harder. Thank you, everyone for your help it is greatly appreciated. |
Edited by - Karalyn on 04/12/2011 17:21:23 |
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Kċarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2011 : 18:46:35
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Hi.
I assume the Stavanger information is an oral information in the family which often contains a large part of truth.
Albert Edward Hansen, a mariner from Stavanger b. ca 1829-1844 to Hans Hansen and Mari Arnison.
Mary Arnison doesn´t sound English to me but Norwegian or Scandinavian.
Because the pronunciation of the English and Norwegian alphabeth is quite different, typo´s appears.
Arnison might be a typo for Arnesen
Arnison, because of the letter i in Arni, sounds Islandic.
Arvison, another typo?, could be Arvesen or Arvidsen.
Do not be dicouraged, more en more information is coming on internet every day, I believe you will find him one day.
Kċre |
Edited by - Kċarto on 04/12/2011 18:48:12 |
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Lionel Young
Starting member
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2011 : 13:18:01
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Kaarto
No, YOUR assumption about 'Stavanger, Norway' being 'ORAL' information is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Please refer again to my earlier and detailed post above, it clearly states the information was 'WRITTEN in the Official Marriage Record in 1853'.
As for your 'pinch of salt comment' about our FT, that was simply disappointing.
Lionel
Lionel |
L Young |
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Karalyn
New on board
Australia
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2011 : 13:36:37
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| Lionel, click on the highlighted THIS in kare's post. That was what she was referring to! |
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Kċarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2011 : 15:31:32
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Lionel.
It was not my intention to offend you, sorry.
In most cases it´s only verbal information and assumptions that one has about an ancestor, that is why peole ask for help here.
A translation can be wrong when English is not my native language.
There exist different information about Albert Edward online that I fail to use not create more confusion.
I am only intersted in to find out where /when Albert Edward was born.
Since no one has found him so far, only his bap. record can be trusted.
The info i brought up tells that Mary Arnison was born in England and died in England, it may be perceived as Albert Edward was born in England which is not correct from what I understand.
Therefore I believe information about him was passed on from one generation to the next.
That kind og information has a lot of truth but not the whole truth and leaves questions.
Kċre |
Edited by - Kċarto on 05/12/2011 16:55:01 |
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Lionel Young
Starting member
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2011 : 12:09:29
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Thanks for the explanations Kare & Karalyn, all my misunderstanding ! my sincere apology - now I understand what you meant by 'This Family Tree' - I must be getting a bit 'touchy' in my old age, and I'm blaming 100% that elusive 'Albert' !! I do very much appreciate your comments Kare..
'Albert' has nearly worn me (and lots of others) out, I feel like I'm right at the 'bottom of the barrell' - there seems to be nowhere to go, and little energy left to do it with.
Norwegian Parents - 'Hans Hansen Mary Arvison', a baby son with 2 distinctly English names 'Albert Edward' ? was he born in England ? Or was 'Albert' born at sea or in the River Thames ? The Father is noted as 'John Hanson' in the 'London Marriage Banns 1754-1921', and in the 2nd Marriage Registration the Father is noted as 'Hans Hanson' - does that suggest 'John/Habs' was at some time living in England, or not ? Or was 'Albert' born in Norway under a different name, and it may well be his Parents never left Norway ? Or did 'Albert' emigrate from Norway alone when he completed his mandatory 'Mariner' service training, e.g.c.1850/51 ?? 'Albert & Sarah married in Stepney in 1852. The 'Family History Notes' state that Albert's son (another 'Albert Edward') born in 1855, Stepney, spent the first 9 years of his life in that area of London, before the family emigrated to Australia in 1864.
Please somebody find 'Albert' & his Parents - we need your help !!
Lionel
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L Young |
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Kċarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2011 : 15:41:32
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That is ok Lionel.
Both Albert and Edward/Edvard is common names in Norway.
I have searched threw the Stavanger records from 1826-29 without any luck or perhaps I overlooked him.
Another option is if he was born in a nearby municipality to Stavanger, but used Stavanger, I have seen it done before if a person was born outside a town.
The ending -sen in Hansen was changed to Hanson?
I know that was common in the US for Norwegian immigrants.
How was it in England or Australia?
In Scandinavia the ending -son in most cases is Swedish.
I found a page on Rootsweb from Oct. 2011 made by an Alison which tells that Albert was born 1826 in Sweden, Link
Another link on Family Search.
Spell Albert Hanson
born 1826
Sweden.
made by Heather MCKenna from Victoria, Australia.
Kċre |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2011 : 17:35:49
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Lionel, I was in the UK National Archives in Kew today.
Ref Kare's point about spelling, he is correct - the Norwegian surnames ending in -sen are frequently mis-transcribed in English into -son. (I know this from my own family) Indeed the Free BMD record for Albert's marriage to Sarah in 1852 lists his name as Albert Hanson, and Albert Junior's birth record is similarly (mis-)spelled.
Your mail refers to the marriage banns - that link can be accessed via Ancestry. Can you clarify if you have the orginal of the full marriage certificate between Albert and Sarah - that should confirm whether he was born in UK, Norway or Sweden. Generally, Free BMD only holds records of birth certificates AFTER 1837, so can't trace Albert Sr to UK via that route.
I guess you have the details for Sarah Susanah Jones' birth - 8 March 1830, daughter of James Jones, carpenter and Sarah Jones, because she was born in London and date and baptism are available from the London records.
I can find no good matching record of Albert and/or Sarah in the 1861 census - the first UK census after their marriage in 1852. I did not search the 1871 census, as your mail states they had emigrated by then.
Maybe they were away on a vessel at the time of the 1861 census (but Albert junior would be very young then to accompany them), or maybe they had returned to Norway prior to their emigration ?? Do you know the port where the vessel Ocean Home sailed from ??
There is a possible UK death record match for Mary Hanson (nee Arnesen/Arnisen (coincidentally the same surname as my own family forebears, but its a common enough name). I'll send to you separately.
Sorry I can't be more positive on Albert Senior |
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Lionel Young
Starting member
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 05:44:18
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Hi Kare & David (I'm very pleased you have joined us, thank you)
The spelling of the 'Hansen / Hanson' surname for the 'Albert' lineage in Australia is clearly 'Hanson'. As you know from thereocds we've discussed to date, it seems to depend on what day it was, or what event, as to whether the surname was spelt 'Hansen' or 'Hanson'. Very likely the reason for this could well have been a mistranslation or just the handwritten records, and thereafter, it became everyone's interpretation of what was written. 'Mary Arnison' is a good example - the hadwritten records staes it's either 'Arnison' or 'Arvison' - take your pick !! Similarly with 'Hans Hansen', it could be 'Ham Hanson'. It is this latter name, that the living Family Members noted as a nickname - but maybe not, his Given Name could have been 'Ham' - and I have noticed many birth registrations back in that era with the name 'Ham'.
Regarding the Swedish connection b.1826 - it's possible I suppose, but again I am aware of some detailed researching in Sweden that has not found anything. I can recall sometime back being in touch with 'Alison' from Roots.Web, and I remember she had taken her inforamtion from the IGI Family Search. Likewise with Heather McKenna, I have communicated direct with her many times, but she is not certain of Sweden, and cannot recall where she obtained that information. I do know the IGI Family Search record was provided some years back by Heather.
Regarding Albert/Sarah's 'Wedding Certificate' registration - no we do not have a copy of the actual Certificate - they were Md 20/12/1852 at St Dunstan and All Saints Church, Stepney, Tower Hamlets Borough, Middlesex, Eng. Albert's Father is named as 'John Hanson'. Do you think obtianing a copy of the full Registration would show any additional information ??
I wonder where they were in 1861 at the time of the Eng. Census ? The Family Notes state that Albert 9 years in the Stepney area - and that ies in with him being b.1855 and emigrating to Aus in 1864.
Regarding the Ship 'Ocean Home' - I would reckon it departed from Southampton Eng - as I understand most of Passenger Ships leaving England around that time departed from Southhampton. Whilst I can find the record of the Ocean Home's arrival in 'Port Phillip Bay (Melbourne) Aus (on 1/6/1864), with the 3 Hanson family members on board, I am having trouble trying out anything else about the 'Ocean Home' relative to England. I did find an entry in 1854 about a Ship 'Ocean Home' that was sailing a passenger run from France to New Orleans USA. Do you reckon the Ship is hiding from me !!
Yes David, I do have all the Sarah Jones family information - England wise. It's another story here in Tasmania trying to sort them out to who's who. Believe me the 'JOnes' problem here is shaping as though it's going to rival the elusive AEH !! Oh dear.
Again, thank you Kare and David it is good of you to give of your time to help us.
Lionel |
L Young |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 09:54:42
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| Lionel, please e-mail me through the site. I can't message you thru' the site for some reason. I have some more points from Fre BMD and the 1841 census to send you. |
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Lionel Young
Starting member
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 12:53:38
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| Thanks David for your post - it's easier said than done, to email you through this site - you don't have any direct contact details listed in your Profile. Not to worry, just email me at lyoungx@bigpond.com - that'll find me OK. |
L Young |
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Hans Hanson c.1805 & Mary Arnison c.1809
