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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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geimar
Starting member
Norway
5 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2014 : 10:11:48
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Sorry that I have not responded to your research for a couple of weeks due to my situation at work - and thanks to all of you for digging into my questions.
At the start I had two questions, I will start with Peter Otto Olsen Lerbak.
I do not have any further information about his familiy in Norway from the time he left for US. As far as I know he was divorced at the time he left, at least his wife Karen is listed with '"s" (divorced) in 1910. When he left he ahd 7 children with his former wife (http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036410002227). They had also a daughter called Oline borned in 1899 who died in 1902 (diphteria, Sanderud hospital, Stange).
Peter is registered as a passenger on Tasso (2) from Kristiania to Grimsby October 8, 1910. Many of the norwegians who arrived in Grimsby went to Liverpool or Brimingham by train to take the final travel to America. I have not been able to find Peter on any passenger list, nor at any immigration list in US. He shows up in South Dakota, Union, Brule in 1915. It looks like he stayed in that area for the rest of his life. He died by hearth attack February 11, 1951. He then lived at Union County farm and left no near relatives. He was buried from St. Paul Lutheran Church at February 13.
I know - from the church archive - that he in the years 1934 to 1943 he lived with former Sever Eidem and Severs daughter Mayme. Peter is registered as Peter Olson Lubok in the 1940 Cencus (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V1SQ-S9G). The records from the church also states that he worked some years with cement building cicterns and basements both in Lexington and Union ccounties.
Still I cannot find any information about Peter in the period from he arrived in Grimsby until he shows up in Brule.
My second question is about Rolf Olvar Rud. The theory that Peter O O Lerbak is Rolfs real father is told in their family. I have been in contact with Rolfs grandchild, and she tells me that Rolf never knew who his father was. This theme was not an accepted topic of conversation in the family.
At baptism (http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20050105010047.jpg), his father is named Lars Hansen, residence Amerika. Baptism witness are Hans Rud and his wife Rønnaug - living at the farm Tamburstuen, where Rolfs mother Olivia Toverud also lived. In Rolfs confirmation his fathers name is Lars Hansen Ruud (http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20051102061285.jpg).
As some of you figures out there was an obvious link from Lars Hansen Ruud to the baptism witness, but even when you have mapped the Rud/Tamburstuen family very well, the name Lars is not found anywhere. I thought that it was possible that Lars Hansen/Rud/Ruud left Norway for Amerika when Olivia was pregnant with Rolf, but I can not find Lars in any passengers list nor at any immigration station in US. The only place to find the name Lars Hansen (Ruud) seems to be when his son was baptisted and at the confirmation.
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GeirM |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 15:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by geimar
My second question is about Rolf Olvar Rud. The theory that Peter O O Lerbak is Rolfs real father is told in their family. I have been in contact with Rolfs grandchild, and she tells me that Rolf never knew who his father was. This theme was not an accepted topic of conversation in the family....
As some of you figures out there was an obvious link from Lars Hansen Ruud to the baptism witness, but even when you have mapped the Rud/Tamburstuen family very well, the name Lars is not found anywhere.
I clicked on the links you provide (birth and confirmation of Rolf) and they are the same that we posted. Just to clarify - because I had thought you were posting records that differed from what we posted.
About this: "The theory that Peter O O Lerbak is Rolfs real father is told in their family." This helps, but who tells that story? Maybe this story is told by the granddaughter, a modern-day researcher who could not find a Lars Hansen, Rud. But maybe the story was told by Rolf based on something Olivia said or did?
In early September 1902, a Norwegian sailor of the right age (born about 1877) named Lars Hansen is traveling to Brooklyn, New York, USA, to the Norwegian sailor's home there (Ellis Island website). Don't know if he is your Lars Hansen, Rud. I'm told sailors/crewmen on ships are usually not found in the regular Norwegian emigration records. Bottom line: It is hard (if not impossible) for a modern-day researcher to prove someone did not exist.
Likewise, when you say "Rolf did not know who his father was," I'm not sure how to interpret that. Maybe it means Rolf had a name "Lars Hansen, Rud," but did not know who this person was, or maybe it means Olivia told the pastor this name but did not tell Rolf, or maybe it means Olivia specifically told Rolf she had been using a fake name for the church records? In other words, so far it's not clear who said what to whom and when. Don't mean to badger you or to belabor the point, but the family story itself is critical in answering this particular question and in answering it you'll want to be really clear about the story's origin.
About this: "Even when you have mapped the Rud/Tamburstuen family very well, the name Lars is not found anywhere." This line reminds me of the Yada Yada episode on Jerry Seinfeld. It skips over a lot of research and records that presumably we'd be digging up, painstakingly, bit by bit, in order to try to help you. But there's a suggestion here that this work has already been done, leaving one unsure what to do next. In the forum, researchers collaborate to share findings, to avoid repeating the same work. Could be a big job to post an update on the work already done, and what then? I can understand your hesitancy to do that, but (in my humble opinion), sharing your findings would be the next step along this road.
I suspect that others here in the forum. in addition to you guys, in addition to me, have searched for Lars Hansen, Rud and not found him. Had a forum researcher found him, that would be announced! Hard to generate enthusiasm when asking you to post all the ways you did not find him. If you don't want to do that, I totally get it.
What does a woman do in the case of a brief encounter, perhaps by choice, but perhaps not? I've thought about this some more, and realize that a family such as Hans Rud, Tamburstuen might lend his name (via an imaginary son) to the cause, of creating a respectable church record, complete with a father, for this newborn child Rolf. In that case, perhaps the parish priest would also have to join the conspiracy. All we can say is that many scenarios are possible.
It is possible for a woman to tell a lie or be mistaken about who is the father of her child. As far as I know, only a DNA test (probably a Y-DNA test) can prove the truth. A Y-DNA test works for males only. One would seek a male descendant of Rolf and a male descendant of Peter (with no females in the line of descent). If the Y-DNA of those two living people matches, Peter is the dad.
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Edited by - JaneC on 07/04/2014 15:58:09 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:18:18
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About this: "What's the story from Peter arrived Grimsby in 1910, until he shows up in Brule? Any family in US?"
Peter said he was heading for South Dakota when he registered to depart Oslo (Kristiania) on the Tasso 06 October 1910. As David Yaw said, and you repeated, he would have arrived Grimsby, traveled to a larger west coast city such as Liverpool, and departed for the USA or Canada from there. You found a death notice for Peter stating he arrived South Dakota in 1909. Since Peter had died, obviously another informant supplied that date and it's a mistake, but we can infer Peter probably did go directly to South Dakota. His entry into the USA is obscured in digital databases because the name is mangled in transcription. Let's search others registering for the same trip: same registration day, departing same day, from Oslo, on the Tasso, Elster line. I found:
Anna Cowell born 19.12.59 destination New York
Marie Sørens. born 24.11.89 destination Amerika
Another line of inquiry is Peter's naturalization records. The 1940 US census says he is a naturalized US citizen.
As for identifying family members of his who are in the USA, do you have information about his parents and/or siblings to share? |
Edited by - JaneC on 07/04/2014 16:21:12 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:20:54
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Who and why would someone fib about the parentage of a child in 1902 Norway?
As a for instance the child Bjarne 2 below Rolf in the baptism register is the child of a married man and a divorced mother, no need for conspiracy there, so why in Rolf's case?
If Peder's marriage was so rocky that he "greased the wheels" for a resolution, presumably buying another father's name and / or a shop for Olivia, his marriage did continue for a number of years later, producing a couple more children after 1902.
Conspiracies tend to fall apart because there are too many parties to it and each party doesn't have the same degree of investment in the lie. If Olivia lied and made up a straw man, why give a name and details that might invite suspicion--i.e. calling him "Hansen" when one of the witnesses and the family with whom she resided head of household was named Hans-- why not make up something else entirely --like he was from Sweden, a different name or something else?
I'd guess, knowing how bitter divorces can get, that the emotions of a wrenching experience like that is where the tales come from. Each party is encouraged to divulge the most outrageous things about the partner in order to secure their desired outcome, at least in US. Are records of divorces in Norway open to the public? That's where I'd be headed. "Follow the money".. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:26:51
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I agree jkmarler - It is highly unlikely that a lie about a father "Lars Hansen, Rud," could be carried off (not to mention sustained over fourteen years, through Rolf's confirmation), because not only Olivia but also Hans Rud, Tamburstuen, the other baptismal witnesses, and even the parish priest (who would know the family) would have to conspire or be fooled. Yes the divorce record might be revealing. One wonders if the prior research referred to, includes an exploration of the divorce record. So much we don't know about the history of "the case."
I doubt though (as a general expectation) that divorce records can prove parentage of a child, for the reasons you say: people hurl accusations, and if that is the case here, we don't know the truth of accusations in a divorce record (again, IF any were made). I still think we need clarify about the family story itself. If it is the researcher-granddaughter who came up with that, that's one thing. If Olivia told that story to her descendants, that's another.
And still, even if the story is clarified, even if the research history is filled out (by prior research or anything new here), the result is the same: when a birth is controversial, only DNA tells us true. |
Edited by - JaneC on 07/04/2014 16:31:25 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:36:32
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| Wait a minute - you are saying that the original assumption (that Lars Hansen, Rud, is the father, as he appears in two church records for Rolf) is trustworthy, and that the origin of the story about "Peter is the father" might be the divorce record accusations. At first I didn't take your meaning - I think this is it. Yes: what is the origin of that story? |
Edited by - JaneC on 07/04/2014 16:40:32 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:44:10
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And even though the witness Hans is well recorded in the various census records, the only census date in which we might find a minor Lars (based on his birthyear of 1877) and an adult Hans living together is 1891--a tough row to hoe, at this point.
Also if Hans is the father of Lars Hansen that in itself is also unusual. He would only have been 17 at the time, not often is the father of a child in Norwegian records 17, usually they are older. Still mistakes do happen. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 16:48:48
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| Yes, all that factors into me wondering if the granddaughter-researcher came up with the story that Lars is NOT the father - because she couldn't document his existence other than through Rolf's records. But the divorce record idea is hot, that could be the origin of the Peter-paternity story too. Enough said, need clarification from the OP. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2014 : 10:52:15
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Peter filed his declaration of intention to become a US citizen:
LERBAK PETER OLSEN UNION 12/11/1939 NORWAY V00663 429 |
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geimar
Starting member
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 15/04/2014 : 23:29:22
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I have been in contact with the granddaughter of Rolf and she now tells me that her aunt - a daughter of Rolf - investigated this topic several years ago. Her conclution was that the name of Rolf's father given when Rolf was baptised was the name of a non-existing man. She has left some papers from her investigating, which is located in another city in Norway. Rolfs granddaughter will pick up the papers in he beginning of May. I will let you know as soon as I get copies of the papers.
I have not been able to trace any divorce records at all. As far as I can see, there are no database including divorces open for the public.
As jkmarler says, Hans Rud Tamburstuen would have been 17 years of age at the time of Rolf's birth in 1877, and if we look at the 1900 census (http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037088002100) we can see that there also is a daughter borned in 1874 (called Rønnaug as her mother). There are also a daughter borned the same year as Rolf. The wife of Hans is 7 years older than him, maybe she brought the kids to Tamburstuen? The children are named Elstad and they are all borned in Nord-Fron. |
GeirM |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 16/04/2014 : 00:05:16
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| Thanks! So I think you are saying the story that Lars Hansen Rud born 1877 is not Rolf's father does indeed originate with a researcher who was unable to document Lars's existence. We tried to find him also, so I understand why she might wonder whether he is real. Even if he is fake, though, it's a big jump to say the father would then be Peter Lerbak. Thank you for checking in, geimar, and we'll look forward to hearing again from you as things progress. (Just for the record, where you say "Rolf's birth in 1877" you mean Lars.) |
Edited by - JaneC on 16/04/2014 00:53:43 |
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geimar
Starting member
Norway
5 Posts |
Posted - 16/04/2014 : 07:19:01
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| Sorry about that, of course I mean Lars. |
GeirM |
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Peter O.O. Lerbak
