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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
 Posted - 30/05/2014 : 19:35:28
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| Thank-you for your in-put Jane...always appreciated. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 30/05/2014 : 19:38:25
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I think JaneC summarize this very good. Thank you Jane. And I had actually forgotten about the d.o.b. found for Christian Thompson. That is for sure a BIG clue for his origin.
Derek/Frank:
I got some more information today, from an genealogist experienced in DNA-testing. He said the same as I wrote yesterday, and what JaneC said above here. Basically; 11-12 markers are far too few to prove that two people are related.
The genealogist said that his 12-marker haplotype (also R1a) was so common that he had got a lot of 12/12 (100%) matches ranging from China in the East to USA in the west.
These matches belong to widely different branches of the R1a tree, so ultimately surely many of the 12/12-matches are "related" to him, going back 5000 years or so...
He also said: "If it is not possible to upgrade the test by the English company, I would recommend that you take a test at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/?c=1, and at least 37 markers. They tend to have sales during summer and autumn, so it may be okay to book then. The summer sale starts presumably around mid June and last for about a month."
The date-of-birth is for sure a good proof, but it would have been perfect to nail it with a DNA match.  So far, that can't be done. |
Edited by - jwiborg on 30/05/2014 19:42:03 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 01:49:55
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Okay so we have had a slight miscue on the DNA testing--who knew-- I have no experience with the procedures and gobbledygook and thought it was unmitigatedly great.
I hope this doesn't mean that Derek and Frank are giving up the quest for certainty. Who else will care about Cristian, if not you? This is not the beginning of the end but the end of the beginning, right?
Since I'm coming on memorial mode (upcoming 70th anniversary of D-Day) I will give you my mother's, Myrtle Marler's rules of engagement:
1. Take no prisoners! (that means continue, do not give up!)
2. If you're going down, go down swinging! (also means do not give up!)
3. If you're going to lose it, burn it so its no good to them!
At least 1 & 2 apply here. But it's certainly up to Derek and Frank. |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 06:09:36
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Thank-you both, Jan Peter and Jackie...as always sterling advice and, like Jane's, always appreciated.
I will be in touch with cousin Frank with regard the last few posts |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 16:06:40
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And an 11 marker test is a reasonable beginning. What if
Frank and Finn fell into different haplogroups? That would affect the next move. But they are in the same haplogroup, which is an encouragement to continue - to extend - the test. Cost is a consideration, but there is no no other barrier to a more detailed test.
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2014 : 11:55:10
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Thank-you Jane,
I have liaised with cousin Frank who is making further inquiries. ( In the matter of 'DNA' which appears to be a new experience to most of us).
An update will be posted when obtained. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
Edited by - jungfigh on 03/06/2014 12:02:03 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2014 : 01:25:05
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Below, a link to the homeDNAdirect website.
Probably this is the test you want:
"Y-Chromosome Test"
"Y-STR Male Lineage DNA test is used to determine if two males share the same paternal lineage. The Y chromosome is inherited and passed exclusively down the male line. Since it has a relatively infrequent mutation rate, it will remain relatively unchanged for many generations. The test will analyse the Y chromsome from each sample submitted and will generate a Y-STR profile for each person. The result are then compared; if the Y chromsome sequences of the people tested match it indicates that the tested parties share a paternal line."
http://www.homednadirect.co.uk/dna-tests-available.html#10
And on the same webpage, perhaps this is the one you were given: "Ancestry DNA Testing." It identifies just one's haplogroup.
Obviously Frank is clarifying with the lab - but from looking at this webpage, I am now hopeful that if we are correct that a more detailed test is needed, then it seems the same lab you used can extend your test.
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Edited by - JaneC on 04/06/2014 01:28:21 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2014 : 11:51:10
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Thank-you so much Jane,
...always appreciated.
Frank is following up further possibilities through the original DNA search.
We accept DNA is used internationally as a 'find all for everybody', but until that route has been travelled, individually, it really is amazing how little our own matches are not conclusive ( unless for further investigation).
I strongly believe Kristian is my Grandfather...a gut feeling..! ...and a historical search on his WW1 record and date of birth. Crucial.
I still await the report from the War Records Office UK on the man I believe is Kristian's father...which may prove historically Kristian's lineage. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2014 : 14:47:42
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| I don't understand. Frank is what...? Also, to my mind, what is amazing is how much individual DNA matches ARE conclusive. Also don't understand how Donald Thompson of Scotland figures into it. But no reply needed. It is your prerogative to investigate as you so choose. I was simply commenting on 2 specific tests at the lab Frank used. Not all labs do the extended Y DNA test. I think his does, which is good news! |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2014 : 17:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by jungfigh
I strongly believe Kristian is my Grandfather...a gut feeling..!
I agree on that! |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2014 : 09:20:55
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I will explain in full whatever result I receive from The War Records Jane. (what prompted me to commission the search).
Thank-you Jan Peter. |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2014 : 13:19:06
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I just want to add something regarding this topic.
The Volda Historians I contacted long time ago regarding the fate of Daniel Johannes Danielson Strømme (1854-1942) and his sons, asked me to update them whenever I had any breaking news on this topic, so that they could update the database for the township books, in case a new edition would be issued in the future. As you remember, the farm history book for Volda said this about the two brothers:
Ananias Johannes (13 Feb 1880 - ?). "Travelled to England. Married and settled there".
Kristian Elias (02 Nov 1882 - 1918). "Travelled to America. Dead 1918".
It looks like the fate of the brothers are mixed, but we don't know 100% for sure. And until we know for sure, I guess we can't update the farm history books. |
Edited by - jwiborg on 05/06/2014 13:25:42 |
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jungfigh
Senior member
Malta
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2014 : 14:45:54
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Agreed on that Jan Peter.
Wouldn't it be a nice touch if the farm history books can be updated..? |
DL. ;o) Malta. G.C. |
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FrankTompson
Starting member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2014 : 23:09:04
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Hi Jane et al,
I spent some time today – yet again - trawling through pages on the science of DNA testing. And yet again that the more I read - the less clear I become!
However, on a specific point, it seems as if a misconception may have been generated. That may well be on my part - so apologies if it was!
To clarify, the test that Finn and I took was the one that you describe above Jane. ie the "Y-Chromosome Test" purchased from the http://www.homednadirect.co.uk/dna-tests-available.html#10. It was not the "Ancestry DNA Test" that identifies just one haplogroup. The whole point of the exercise was to try to establish if Finn and I (both potential male-line descendants from a common great-grandfather) are related.
While I accept the obvious logic that the more markers one uses the more accurate the results, I still don’t understand why this should be significant when, in our case, we are only going back 2/3 generations. Why would the DNA between Finn and my grandfather have changed so much in such a short space of time that 11 exact matching markers would not give a degree of certainty ‘beyond reasonable doubt’? Having done a fair amount of trawling, most labs take 11(ish) markers as their benchmark for the Y-STR test.
I spoke with HomeDNADirect who advise that they do not run an upgrade service to the original result, so that’s that on that particular line of enquiry.
Jan Peter, you advise from your research: "With these STR values, it is 100% certain that the two men in the test belong to haplogroup R1a. (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/) and that ‘the genealogist said that his 12-marker haplotype (also R1a) was so common that he had got a lot of 12/12 (100%) matches ranging from China in the East to USA in the west. However, the results from our test did not seek to establish a haplogroup, nor did the result refer to haplogroup R1a. I’m a bit confused, therefore, of the relevance of haplogroup R1a. Could you clarify please? (I’m not suggesting it’s not right, just that I don’t understand!)
To be honest I’m not sure, short of going on an intensive 2 week training course, that I will ever really understand this subject. It would certainly be very welcome news to know that Finn and I (and by extension Derek) are directly related through our great grandfather. However, if the consensus is that the test we have undertaken does not do that, then so be it.
Truth is truth, and, as I have said to Derek, there is no useful purpose served in trying to pull the wool over our eyes just because the results from HomeDNA Diect seem to suit our purposes: that was the whole point of posting up the results, to open them to 'public' scrutiny.
(As I indicated in my previous post the FTDNA site doesn’t work (try it yourself) which is why I didn’t use them.)
More comment/ light shining on the science invited!
Cheers,
Frank
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2014 : 23:47:58
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Hi Frank,
what I wrote was a copy of what I received from some dna experts in a norwegian ancestry forum, I showed them your results, and asked for comments.
The first one said directly: ""With these STR values, it is 100% certain that the two men in the test belong to haplogroup R1a." And he added that 12 values were too few to determine (close) relatives.
The other comment was similar, and he added that he had got matches from all over the world (incl china and usa) with his y-dna-12 test.
He recommended FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com and to go for 37 markers as a minimum. And he added that they usually have it on sale in June/July.
What kind of problems did you experience with https://www.familytreedna.com ?
I managed to put the Y-DNA-37 in the shopping cart for checkout at $167 (£100) now, but I didn't proceed to checkout...
https://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx#/shoppingCart?pid=1676
I see that the y-chromosome-test you took is priced at £269.00. Much more expensive than the Y-DNA-37 test. Even the Y-DNA-67 is cheaper, priced at $268 (£159).
A bit confused about that. Ok, things are cheaper in the US, but does your test contain more information that previously revealed? Have I or others missed something? |
Edited by - jwiborg on 06/06/2014 00:00:12 |
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Christain Tromm
