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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
 Posted - 25/08/2007 : 17:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
On a more cheerful note re: Norwegians at school in Ireland 1766 the following is from the diary of Mary Leadbetter (nee Shackelton) and my gratitude to Samuel Hanks for bringing it to my attention.
"Two Norwegians were also sent to this school, the only natives of that country who were ever at it. They were both from Drontheim, ....
There seams to have been very well established connections between Norwegians and the Irish back in the old days. Did you know there were an export industri of boats from Trondheim (Drontheim) to the West Coast of Ireland pre the Napoleonic Wars. According to an article by Michael McCaughan in the Ulster Folklife, 1982, there was an announcement in the Belfast Telegraph June 24th 1789 concerning the Drontheim boats
The boats were the so called Åfjord boat type, and is very similar to the ships built by the Vikings, i.e. a result of a very very old crafting tradition. When the export of boats from Trondheim stopped as a result of the War, Irish boatbuilders in the Moville area started to build a replica, commonly known as the Druntheimer. (just another side track  )
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Børge Solem |
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 26/08/2007 : 13:59:27
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Hannah Parr
Limerick, May 11th.1868.
To the editor of the Reporter and Vindicator
Sir, The arrival of the Norwegian emigrant ship "Hannah Parr" with 380 passengers is another powerful argument in favour of the Transantlantic packet station, but I hope the exalted will not be asleep to our own interests on a sanitary point of view. For instance there are passengers huddled together in the unwholesome and unventilated berths of an emigrant ship, it would be all very well on the Atlantic where there is a fresh breeze always blowing to ventilate them, being in such a place as the New Docks here, now that the warm weather is settling in, is to say the least enough to cause uneasiness to the timid.
Now,Sir, I would suggest that a deputation await the Mayor's Locum Tenens and beg of him to insist on these poor emigrants being placed in some temporary asylum, say the militia barracks, which I believe, is almost unoccupied, until the ship would be ready for sailing. I would wish that some person, better able to handle his pen, and not leave it to that of,
Your obedient servant,
Salus
(We are sure the matter is in the good hands and those of the Norwegian Consul. M, R. Ryan. Esq.)
The Norwegian Vessel "Hannah Parr"
About fifty of the emigrants, with their children &c., visited Castleconnell by rail on Sunday and they appeared delighted with the scenery, and where the supplied themselves with blossoms, which they placed in their hats and head dresses.
The citizens of Limerick have shown kindness and hospitality to these strangers, crowds each evening supplying the children with cakes and presents.
(Maurice Lenihan) |
John |
Edited by - John Foley on 29/12/2009 23:24:43 |
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2007 : 08:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
Borge, Just a bit of information, the school the two Norwegian boys attended in 1766 was founded by the original Shackleton who came to Ireland to found the Quaker school in Ballintore. His decendant was Ernest H. Shackleton see http://www.south-pole.com/p0000097.htm
Small world
Yes, a small world! Did you know that the first organised party of emigrants from Norway, the Sloopers who departed from Stavanger in 1825 were mainly inspired by the Quakers. The Danish King supported Napoleon Bonaparte in the war 1807-1814 and many Norwegian ship crews were captured by the English and help as prisoners in England till the end of the war. During their stay in prison they came in contact with Quaker prisoners and adopted their beliefs which they brought back to Norway. In the following years William Allan and Thomas Shillitoe visited Norway. The religious dissenters were persecuted and threatened by the government, and in 1825 they decided to leave for America.
(I sent you a reply to your e-mail a few days back, I hope you received it in these times of spam and mailfiltes) |
Børge Solem |
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 02:44:17
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The following is the full text of the letter from Kearse & Co. Merchant Tailors, 28 George Street (Now O'Connell Street), Limerick. This letter was used with good effect by the Chronicle Newspaper.
Tuesday Evening 12th. May 1868. Limerick Chronicle.
THE SHPWRECKED NORWEGIANS
Sir, The attention of this city has been much attracted by the Norwegian ship, with its living freight of over 400 human beings, who have sought and found refuge on the tranquil bosom of our noble Shannon, after vainly combating the force and power of the mighty Atlantic. We are glad to perceive from your previous remarks that the respected Norwegian Consul, M.R. Ryan Esq. is doing everything in his power to alleviate the distress of these poor emigrants; but we venture to suggest that while providence has so placed our river, with arms wide extended into the great ocean, and made our port a harbour of refuge, has this providence not imposed on us a duty of hospitality to them?
We have observed the mute appeals of various groups of them from, door to door, and could not fail to remark their clean, orderly and respectable appearance, and their ardent gratitude and thanks for even a crust of bread for their children, as evidenced by their repeated shaking hands within every one within reach on receipt of the smallest donation. It must be very distressing to any person to be in such narrow bounds as the accommodation the ship affords, especially while undergoing the necessary repairs. We would suggest that some clergyman take the initiative and secure for their temporary use one of the many vacant houses in Limerick, and we have no doubt as to the influx of donations for so desirable an object. While thus discharging a duty which as Irishmen and women we have never yet failed in, namely, practical hospitality, not to the high and great and learned and mighty, who could return us the same again, but to those from whom personally we have nothing to get in return. But how much have we to get from him who speaks as man never yet speak, and who has said,?I was a stranger and you took me in , naked and you clothed me, sick &c. and you visited me.?And again?he that giveth a cup of cold water in my name shall in nowise lose his reward.?We shall be happy to contribute our mite, and remain, Mr. Editor.
Your obedient servants,
Kearse & Co .
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Edited by - John Foley on 13/04/2008 11:56:43 |
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atle-unnimarie
Junior member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 25/12/2007 : 02:02:01
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Totally fascinating history here. This is much broader than the title of the discussion and has a wealth of important info. Time and place is everything. I have no Irish blood, but that is irrelevant.
I once read in some book of the Nordics, whether stated facetiously or as factual I know not, that whever the Vikings went they came upon evidence that the Irish Monks had been there before!
Have to add that we in California also called it Indian Wrestling some 60 years ago. Don't know if it still prevails. Yes, the arm wrestling is timeless.
I agree with Wanda. A BOOK would be fantastic! |
Edited by - atle-unnimarie on 25/12/2007 10:04:37 |
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 26/12/2007 : 11:30:34
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The study of people along the Atlantic way shows a constant movement, not always voluntary, from present day, North Africa,Spain,France,Ireland to Norway, Iceland and beyond. The movement of people left a legacy of Cities, (Limerick included c.922 A.D.) art, metalwork, coinage, boat construction, sagas and words common to the languages.The similarities in form and structure of the ancient stories has been explored and commented on by Scandinavian and local scholars.
The Irish monks and the Norsemen see the Brendan Voyage By Tim Severin. Brendan the Navigator it recounts the voyage of a leather replica boat, (A large currach) and follows the Atlantic Way up the west coast, Orkney, Shetland, Iceland, etc. to the east coast of Canada, quite an adventure.
References to Native Industry etc. in the reporting of the Hannah Parr stay in Limerick may need explanation,
Contemporary press reports suggest Tait's Military Clothing factory (Sir Peter Tait, mayor of Limerick at the time of the Hannah Parr tie up,) was experiencing commercial difficulty.Taits belief that the purchasing pattern of the military procurement mechanism favoured English suppliers is teased out in evidence to a subsequent parliamentary enquiry, It was interpreted locally as exclusion of native industry and the ineffectiveness of a detached parliament.
The uncertainty caused was well reported in the Chronicle during 1868, from a Limerick labour perspective shows an interesting pattern of young industrious women giving their occupation as stitchers, pattern makers,cutters etc. leaving Limerick for America, some the first of their family to emigrate, not through Queenstown (Cobh) but from Limerick Rail Terminus to Dublin, Liverpool and the steam ships for the United States Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
A number of the ships surgeons were from the general Limerick area and provide some background detail which may be of interest to Norwegian emigrants who shipped out of Liverpool.
The "Hannah Parr" Industrious Norwegian Women.
Some background on the Killarney native, Francis Counihan, he was a classics scholar, trained as a lawyer, newspaper founder,owner, and a single minded nationalist. His concern for the Norwegian visitors was obvious and genuine; his early press coverage was an important aspect of the Hannah Parr episode. His assessment of the efforts of Mr Ryan the Norwegian-Swedish Vice-Counsel, are sceptical and at times scathing, he continues to apply pressure and demands action.
His offices afforded him the opportunity of observing the Norwegian visitors at close quarters, his comments are always positive and at times amusing.
Francis Counihan Wednesday May 13th. 1868
Not withstanding the generosity with which the �Norwegian Consul� was stated to have made �ample provision" for the comforts of the Norwegian visitors, several of the poor people seem to be in sad straits for funds, and accept any aid they are offered to relieve the want under which they are labouring. The females are very industrious, and even whilst passing through the streets their fingers are occupied. They are no idlers, since their fingers are employed knitting, their feet walking, and their eyes looking inquiringly around.
Mr. Counihan observes,
"Wednesday May 20th. 1868,
With characteristic regard for the distressed, the Right Worshipful the Mayor communicated with Alderman Carte, his representative here, requesting he should inquire into the condition of the Norwegian emigrants, and inform him whether their wants were supplied in every respect. The Alderman did institute inquiry and he was told that the Master and Doctor of the ship �Hannah Parr� and other Masters but no other Doctor were duly consulted, whether in the abstract or in the concrete is not too clear; but of the two, it would seem, from the terms of the answer which the Alderman received that a council of four Masters with one Medical Officer was convened in the hulk, and that all five reported to the supreme local authority, the emigrants were in no present want, having abundant provision on board. The Council therefore repudiated any appeal to public benevolence on their behalf. Having such abundance at their very elbow, it is unaccountable how any accepted elementary aid and, with plenty on board, seemed to regard a handful of cold boiled potatoes as a reasonable supplement to their needs. If the Council repudiated a public appeal, the poorer Emigrants, nevertheless, had the great privilege, defined by Sir James Graham, in the Irish famine, as the liberty to beg; and that right was personally exercised, shows how individuals will sometimes ignore the deliberative wisdom of superior authority, and seek creature comforts, however stinted and small, despite the deep generosity, anxious humanity and abounding stores, felt, shown and lavished �on their behalf �
Was it peculiarity, privation or what that prompted a father and mother to receive the kind dole of cold boiled native tubers, and at once to satisfy the obvious hunger of the poor babe they carried? Even on Sunday last were there none of the Emigrants in meagre garb, slowly wending their was by Henry Street, whether the congregation were then proceeding to the Franciscan Church, and is it untrue that those poor strangers were willing to take any species of �comfort� offered them by parties who beheld their plight.
However, the owner of the �Hannah Parr� being as reported, a wealthy and benevolent person, not disposed to repudiate any responsibility devolving upon him, he was put in possession of the circumstances of the case. But there being deficiency of knowledge, if not entire innocence, of his legal liability, communication was made, on a liberal and large scale, with the Swedish as well as the Norwegian government-which we thought were all one,-to ensure that the provisioning of the ship should be fully replenished before they left port. The phrase is singular if not ambiguous. The provisioning must have lacked something to require replenishing. If it did, how could the provisions on board be so abundant? Is it by naval or land logic that the unequivocal report and the dubious statement must be reconciled. Under these circumstances aspersions, like that of Mahomet�s celebrated coffin, was the safer position; and so there was hesitancy in lending the official sanction to a public appeal on the behalf of the emigrants, whilst, on the other hand, there was official declension in checking the flow of individual generosity. A law of Solomon�s condemned neutrality in momentous affairs, but we all know the Greeks were ingenious sophists. If, nevertheless, individual, individual generosity to any of the emigrants was superfluous, why not have it peremptorily checked; or if the provision on board were abundant, and as freely supplied as it was plentiful, why need generosity have been elicited?
Waiting other official reports, which would or would not suggest intimation of wants to generous citizen�s arrangements were made for lodging the emigrants on land, and thoroughly cleansing and ventilating the vessel in which they were boarded and lodged. Not, to be sure, that anything was the matter. The happiness of the conviction was folly enjoyed that the health of the passengers continued such as to cause no apprehension.
Do juniors rate on the rolls as �passengers?� The mortal remains of some of that class will remain behind in a Limerick burial ground when the ship goes forth fully provisioned, and it is even reported, that sickness has befallen some of the seniors on board the assiduously cared for, and abundantly provisioned, and exquisitely cleansed �Hannah Parr� Why the very name of the salubrious ship suggests longevity!
No wonder the Admiral, who came down specially and visited the vessel, should express his admiration to the respected Vice Consul, M. R. Ryan, Esq., J.P. and add his satisfaction with the arrangements and the condition of the crew. How he overlooked the passengers is odd, as they lay sheds perfectly visible, or in a store easily visitable, only a few sick of diarrhoea, it may be hoped from so over consumption of the abundant stores, but anyhow improving on a nutritive dietary than, it may be inferred, they consumed on board. To restore them completely, they were entertained at a tea party at the Protestant Hall, and the festivity was closed with revolving views of the reflections and other magnificent and tangibles and intangible things, by which they were renovated for the renewed voyage. On the whole the sojourn will be very memorable, developing as it does so much official and non-official generosity and interest, comprehending so many vicissitudes, and leaving on record the immense advantage of official representations at foreign ports"
The issues of representation at foreign ports and promotion of of the Shannon and Foynes, as a point of embarkation for emigrants and mail serving the United States surfaces in local comment on the Hannah Parr saga. The considerable resources expended on infrastructural development of Limerick and Foynes in anticipation of the lucrative mail trade. The subsequent disappointment at, what was felt to be a non commercial partisan exclusion of Limerick and Foynes provided another impetus for The pro "Home Rule" movement made up of the majority of Irish people.
One man who shared the Home Rule views and may be of American interest is Sir Cecil Spring-Rice 1859-1918 of the local Spring-Rice family, he was best man at the wedding of Theodore Roosevelt and Edith Carrow and was British Ambassador to the United States 1912-1918
As a poet he shared this gift with his kinsmen Aubrey and Stephen De Vere, Cecil's "The Two Fatherlands" perhaps his best known piece, written 1908 during his posting to Sweden, renamed "I vow to thee my country" later set to music by Gustav Holst. The poem may also reflect Anglo Irish loyalties at a time when members of his family were pursuing a Home-Rule agenda in Ireland.
Sir Cecil, while in Washington moved by the deaths of so many young people (1914-1918 war,) had renamed the poem and reworked the first verse, some find it has a relevance in modern times .
I vow to thee, my country-all earthly things
above-
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my
love,
The love that asks no questions; the love that
stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the
best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays
the price,
The love that makes undaunted the
final sacrifice.
And there�s another country I�ve heard of long
ago-
Most dear to them that love her, most great to
them that know-
We may not count her armies: we may not see
her King-
Here fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is
suffering.
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds
increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her
paths are peace.
btw, rather than cluttering up the Norway-Heritage site, a link to the ongoing project blog is at,
http://shipwrights-shipwrights.blogspot.com/
Thanks
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Edited by - John Foley on 06/02/2010 07:55:38 |
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 26/12/2007 : 14:01:25
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Port of Limerick Shipping Intelligence,
Ships in port during “Hannah Parr” tie up, Fortune, Captain Krone, Drobak, cargo of ice. Victoria, Captain Peterson, Drobak, ice. Aiso,[/i] Captain Gronmark, Ice. Bakar Captain Soich Rubens Captain Johnson, Drobak, (Rubens a Parr ship, sailed for Quebec 16th May 1868). Local folk memory reports that the [i]Rubens left Limerick for Quebec with more than her compliment of crew, perhaps this is too fanciful but worth investigating. The Norwegian ships captains were the people mentioned above. Perhaps ships papers, ships day diary of the above may shed some light on the conditions on the Hannah Parr. The fact that the captains opinion was sought by the Norwegian Vice-Consul Mr. Ryan would have made the incident worthy of note. |
John |
Edited by - John Foley on 30/12/2009 00:01:17 |
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2008 : 16:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Borge
quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
Borge, Just a bit of information, the school the two Norwegian boys attended in 1766 was founded by the original Shackleton who came to Ireland to found the Quaker school in Ballintore. His decendant was Ernest H. Shackleton see
Small world http://www.framheim.com/Shackleton.htm
Yes, a small world! Did you know that the first organised party of emigrants from Norway, the Sloopers who departed from Stavanger in 1825 were mainly inspired by the Quakers. The Danish King supported Napoleon Bonaparte in the war 1807-1814 and many Norwegian ship crews were captured by the English and help as prisoners in England till the end of the war. During their stay in prison they came in contact with Quaker prisoners and adopted their beliefs which they brought back to Norway. In the following years William Allan and Thomas Shillitoe visited Norway. The religious dissenters were persecuted and threatened by the government, and in 1825 they decided to leave for America.
(I sent you a reply to your e-mail a few days back, I hope you received it in these times of spam and mailfiltes)
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Borge
Veteran Moderator
Norway
1297 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2008 : 22:09:52
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Hello John
Thanks for providing the wheal of information. It is really interesting. I try to keep up with it all, and must just apologize for not being very good at following it all up. I will try to improve :-)
Did you ever get in touch with Clair Haugen? |
Børge Solem |
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niamh bowen
New on board
Ireland
1 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2008 : 18:15:53
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Hi John,
I am a theatre practitioner based in Limerick. I was responsible for the Island Theatre Co Outreach Programme that focused on the Hannah Parr Project. I collaborated with Clair Haugen on the research and development of the project over a 6 month period. I think he would be most helpful to you. I'll send him an email if you like and get him to get in touch with you.
If I can be of any help just let me know. During the project planning I would have been in contact with Limerick Civic Trust in relation to locating the graves etc. so that may be of help to you.
I am delighted that there are plans afoot to mark the Hannah Parr stay.
Niamh |
Niamh |
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atle-unnimarie
Junior member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 14/03/2008 : 07:53:13
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[quote]Originally posted by John Foley
The export of freshwater block ice from Norway to Western Europe including Ireland was an interesting trade not so much because of the ice but what they ships took back with them on the return voyage from Ireland. In Drobak the sea side Villa Parr the property of Søren Parr is a tourist attraction. Søren Parr occupied the villa from the mid-1800 he is listed as the registered owner of a number the vessels trading block ice with the Port of Limerick. (Possibly the Ice ship Ruben which departed 16th of May 1868 for Quebec to much cheering from the Hannah Parr crew and passengers )
The lead lined ice houses a feature in many of the larger Irish stately homes constructed from the 18th century may indicate the beginning of this trade. The presence of Ice merchants in Henry & Coughlin’s general directory of 1867 the principal towns of Munster (includes Limerick which is in the province of Munster) It would seem to indicate a flourishing trade.
Norwegian timber or deals as it was termed was also traded with oher Irish Sea ports. The following is an extract from a 1778 diary in Ireland.
“A very extraordinary circumstance I was told—that within five or six years there has been much hay carried from Waterford to Norway, in the Norway ships that bring deals. As hay is dear here, it proves a most backward state of husbandry in that northerly region, since the neighbourhood of sea-ports to which this hay can alone go is generally the best improved in all countries. I will post the list of Norwegian ships, including owners, trading with the Port of Limerick including outbound cargo if that is of interest.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It now approaching March 17, I miss the continuum of this saga, seeing nothing for over a month. Perhaps something will be here by May 17!
Saol fada chugat -- Long life to you.
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John Foley
Ireland-Norway special member
Ireland
109 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2008 : 15:04:17
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some information on "Peculiar headdresses of some of the women, extent of damage to Hannah Parr, location of tie-up of Hannah Parr in Limerick docks and age of the unnamed Norwegian child"
NORWEGIAN EMIGRANT SHIP IN THE PORT OF LIMERICK
Limerick May 9th.- the arrival at our quays of the Norwegian full-rigged ship Hannah Parr, Captain Larsen, bound from Christiana for Quebec, caused a sensation through the city. The Hannah Parr was towed up the Shannon yesterday morning, in a disabled state by two of the river tug steamers and safely berthed at the north end of the dock. The master, at once put himself in communication with Michael R. Ryan Esq., J.P. Norwegian Consul. The vessel had been twenty one days out altogether and on the 28th of April, when 27 degrees west, she encountered heavy weather, with severe squalls which carried away the foremast, second top gallant and jury mast, sails &c. and left her in a disabled condition. In this state she was driven into the Shannon. Fortunately no serious accident befell either the passengers or crew but the ship must remain in dock for some days to undergo repairs and be refitted to resume her voyage.
The emigrants both male and female are of the middle class, well looking and apparently comfortable. They paraded the street in small groups during the evening and were followed by crowds of juveniles, the peculiar headdresses of some of the females attracting attention. [/b]
The Clare Freeman Saturday May 16th. 1868
This newspaper served the Moyarta area including Kilrush, Scattery Island and Mutton Island, which is just north of the entrance to the River Shannon.
Scattery Roads explained. Scattery Roads, also referred to as approaches, to navigate safely within marks and lights, these are all nautical terms applied to the known and safe approaches to a port, it is in effect an imaginary road which is now used in modern G.P.S. charting systems as a visual road. These safe approaches to the river Shannon and the leading light located on Scattery Island. Further up the river Shannon you have Tarbert roads etc.
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John |
Edited by - John Foley on 30/12/2009 00:49:09 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 20/04/2008 : 02:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
The descriptions of the passengers and the games the children played are amusing in particular a type of wrestling game popular with the adults also a game played by the children called "Fox".
Where did you find the name of this game to be "Fox"? 
Jan Peter
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atle-unnimarie
Junior member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 20/04/2008 : 06:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
quote:
Originally posted by Borge
quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
Borge, Just a bit of information, the school the two Norwegian boys attended in 1766 was founded by the original Shackleton who came to Ireland to found the Quaker school in Ballintore. His decendant was Ernest H. Shackleton see
Small world http://www.framheim.com/Shackleton.htm
Yes, a small world! Did you know that the first organised party of emigrants from Norway, the Sloopers who departed from Stavanger in 1825 were mainly inspired by the Quakers. The Danish King supported Napoleon Bonaparte in the war 1807-1814 and many Norwegian ship crews were captured by the English and help as prisoners in England till the end of the war. During their stay in prison they came in contact with Quaker prisoners and adopted their beliefs which they brought back to Norway. In the following years William Allan and Thomas Shillitoe visited Norway. The religious dissenters were persecuted and threatened by the government, and in 1825 they decided to leave for America.
(I sent you a reply to your e-mail a few days back, I hope you received it in these times of spam and mailfiltes)
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atle-unnimarie
Junior member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 20/04/2008 : 07:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
quote:
Originally posted by Borge
quote:
Originally posted by John Foley
Borge, Just a bit of information, the school the two Norwegian boys attended in 1766 was founded by the original Shackleton who came to Ireland to found the Quaker school in Ballintore. His decendant was Ernest H. Shackleton see
Small world http://www.framheim.com/Shackleton.htm
Yes, a small world! Did you know that the first organised party of emigrants from Norway, the Sloopers who departed from Stavanger in 1825 were mainly inspired by the Quakers. The Danish King supported Napoleon Bonaparte in the war 1807-1814 and many Norwegian ship crews were captured by the English and help as prisoners in England till the end of the war. During their stay in prison they came in contact with Quaker prisoners and adopted their beliefs which they brought back to Norway. In the following years William Allan and Thomas Shillitoe visited Norway. The religious dissenters were persecuted and threatened by the government, and in 1825 they decided to leave for America.
(I sent you a reply to your e-mail a few days back, I hope you received it in these times of spam and mailfiltes)
A Quaker Corollary is the c. 1617 Englanders who went to Holland to escape from the existing theological dissention and persecution. It was there that the Brits became familiar with and influenced by the Quaker Concepts. Some fourteen years later about 150 or so of them boarded the Mayflower for the "Colonies", bringing those concepts with them. It is said that there was nary a barrister among them!
It is also said that New Amsterdam and the Knickerbockers of the 1630's originated with a Norwegian influence and resulted in Norse - Dutch intermarriages, the Dutch families being the early on movers and shakers in this new land.
The Quaker contribution continued throughout early emigration to the Colonies and to other geographies .... At some time later on there must have been a few, and a few too many, lawyer stow aways!!!
OK. This is not of the Irish connection, but I find the Quaker Concepts as Common Ground. |
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Ireland Norway
