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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2010 : 11:09:06
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Good morning! I am trying to get a feel for social and economic standing when reading tax assessments and probate records and am wondering if there is any document that gives 17th and 18th century equivalents. Or is there a general current value for riksdaler/marks for the same time period?
An example is a record I read yesterday for Hordaland in 1707 of an estate that included 10 laup, as well as an annual salary of 4 riksdaler for the position of sheriff. How does this translate into present day values?
I am also trying to understand the social strata of the 17th century, and would appreciate any suggestions for articles to read that could give me an idea of what constituted farming class, merchant class and upper classes (landowners and nobility) for the same time period.
Thank you to anyone who can give me suggestions of documents to read about this!
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Lislcat
Advanced member
USA
690 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 20:08:59
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Hi,
I didn't find anything specifically for Norway, but this is for Sweden and it also compares Denmark and Norway's currency. I hope this helps, but I'm not sure it's exactly what you are looking for.
http://www.tomdahlstedt.se/oldswedish.htm
Money, denominations and payment of older days. At the bottom of the page. |
Lislcat |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 22:45:38
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Hi.
Easy to stumble and break both legs with the old units of measurement, hopefully its correct.
One Riksdaler 1695 was 3,25 Kroner, Norwegian page here
The Sheriff´s salary 1707 was 4 Riksdaler (13 Kroner)
The pricecalculator is further down, see here
and tells 13 Kroner in 1707 is the value of 5617 Kroner, the inflation is 43107 percent, see further down.
One Dollar /6 kroner, not much salary, in addition he had his own farm, probably this farm paid no tax.
The occupation Lensmann / Sheriff was semi-public and the Bailiff´s asistent, from 1740 the Sheriff received a share in the taxes to the goverment and the church pluss a share in the fines.
Laup was the same as Pundslaup or Laupsmål-Laupsland , a unit for arable land, another term was Månadsmatmol (the amount of food to a man in one month) normally 1-3 Pundslaup.
One Laup in butter was 3 BismerPund (of 5,5 Kilogram pluss) ;18Kilogram (36 US Pund) in Butter.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 05/10/2010 09:39:55 |
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Lislcat
Advanced member
USA
690 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 23:19:53
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Kåre,
I was hoping you might have an answer for him.
:-) |
Lislcat |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 09:40:14
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Hei Wanda,
long time since we talked.
These old words are difficult to understand in Norwegian and then translate to English.
Acc. the Matrikkel "Farm register" and value;
a "Fullgård" on 2 Laup butter paid full tax, a "Halvgaard" on 1-2 Laup butter paid half tax and a farm less than one Laup, a socalled "Ødegaard" paid no tax.
Full- means complete, Halv- means Half, Øde- Deserted, a description on farms that had been abandoned (as during the Black Plague 1349-50) but where farming where taken up again, these farms were exempt from tax in a transition period and then to pay a lower tax.
In some areas from the early 1700s one Laup butter was converted to two RiksDaler
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 05/10/2010 10:14:28 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 11:02:25
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I can try to explain the sosial strata in the 17th century in Norway for you later.
Kåre |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 18:44:06
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Kåre, and "Lislcat" -- absolutely brilliant!!!! Thank you so much! This is a lot to absorb and think about and yes Kåre, I would be very interested in 17th century Norwegian social strata whenever you have time.
Thanks so much and have a great evening!
Kathy |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 18:59:36
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| quick question -- as I understand this, the 1707 sheriff's salary of 13 kroner had the "buying power" of approximately 698 Euros per month in 2009? I see now that it must have been a part-time position which is, as you pointed out, why he still had a farm. |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 21:14:26
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Hi.
To my knowledge the salary was for a year, it was a secondary occupation and his farm was exempt from tax.
To be a "Bonde lensmann" Farmer sheriff, was a honorable mission.
He was selected by the districts most powerful farmers, he was their Ombudsman.
He and a few other powerful men represented the district in both the celebration/tribute to a new king (all royal ceremonies was taken place on Akershus Fortress, Oslo) or in meetings with the kings men.
Kåre |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 00:01:08
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Hi.
The noble (Adel in Norwegian) families and how I see it.
I cant find much info from the 1700´s so I am posting from the middle age to the 1800´s
During the 400 years long union with Denmark "400 års natten" 400 years long night (ended 1814) where the king was absolute monarck most of the Norwegian aristocrat disappeared in powerty.
In 1300 there were 300 Noble families in Norway, 300 years later the number was 50.
From the Uradel, noble families who can trace their ancestry back to 1400, 7 families remained;
Bjørkøy- Austrått family, Kane, Bolt, Galtung, Benkestok, Paus and Smør, some from the upper nobilities.
In the 1600 and1700 most of the Norwegian noble families were a mix of Danish and Norwegian nobility from where most of the Norwegians were ancestors to Lady Inger of Austrått and her husband Niels Henriksen Gyldenløve.
New noblefamilies arise, some were called "Brevadel" Brev means letter, they recieved the appointment from the king by a letter.
After the 1814 war when Norway by those days Superpowers was forced into a union with Sweden the Norwegian Constitution of Mai 17. forbade the creation of new Noble families in Norway.
Finally 1821 the Norwegain Parliament, against the kings wish, abolished the nobility by law, but was allowed to retain their privilages as long as they lived.
The farmers and working class /cottagers remains.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 06/10/2010 09:31:20 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 10:07:28
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A short summary of a historical Norwegian Farmer as I read it.
Before the 1700 all/most farmers were Tenant farmers, most of the land was owned by the church and the noble families and the king and rich citizens of the towns after the Protestant reformation in 1517.
The Tenant farmer had legal rights as opsed to the rest of Europe.
The landownres often lived fare away, the Norwegian Tenant farmer had more freedom as long as he kept the maintenance in the contract than most Europeens.
Because of that the Norewgian farmer was an independant and good soldier.
The contract between the land owner and farmer could be inherited to the next generation, in the 1700 farmers had first right to buy the farm/land if it was for sale, along with Odelsretten and Åsetesretten the right of heirs were secured in Norway.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 06/10/2010 10:25:49 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 13:21:36
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Thank you so much, Kåre for all this information. This is very fascinating! As I was reading this, I was thinking of what had happened over the course of history that had so radically changed the fabric of a society. It seems as if Norway differs from other European countries which still has upper classes despite revolutions and disease, and that Norway was actually more forward-thinking than other European countries by abolishing the nobility as early as 1821!
Odelsretten and Åsetesrett definitions were a great help In reading the bygdebok for farms in my family, I had noticed quite a few farms which had changed to different families, sometimes to brothers, sometimes to other neighbors, or had even been absorbed by other farms and these definitions helped me understand how it probably came about.
I have a question concerning one of my ancestors, Simen Dyressen Meen of Telemark -- he seemed to be a very significant landowner in the 1500s through his lumber trade but had also a tremendous amount of profit from property and I was always curious how he had obtained so much. Here is a quote from a website, and he also seemed to have taken over church property as well which seems highly unusual.
"Dyre eide gården Meen. Ved siden av gårdsbruket dreiv Dyre trelasthandel og sagbruk. Han ble lensmann omkring 1580. I 1575 var han kirkeverge. Sammen med to andre var han den første kirkevergen vi kjenner fra Gjerpen. 1580 overtok han gården til odel og eie. Det var da en av de største gården i distriktet og strekte seg fra Skienselva til vest i Siljandelet i Øst. Meen hadde tidligere vært klostereiendom."
I have some information on him, but he seems as if he may have been a bit "ruthless" -- he had not only the lumber trade, and a lot of property but also a lot of income from other farms, and on top of this he was the sheriff. It makes a person wonder that perhaps he manipulated teh system to his advantage!
Thank you again for the help
Kathy
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 17:25:20
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Hi, you are welcome.
I can´t find any evidences that Simen Dyresen was ruthless.
Translation:
Dyre owned the farm Meen. In addition to the farm he ran a lumber trade and a saw mill. He was Lensmann (Sheriff) from about 1580. In 1575 he was church guardian. With two others ( Jørgen Pedersen Kier/Kjær and Arne Andersen Thofte) he was the first church guardian we know about from Gjerpen.
1580 he takes over Meen which was his inheritance.
Meen was one of the districts largest farms from the Skiensriver at Skien town to the eastern border of Siljan in west.
Earlier Meen belonged to the Monastery (Gimsøy Monastery)
Dyre (Tiøstelsen) Meen was church guardian in Gjerpen church build about 1150.
Gimsøy was a Benedict monastery for nuns established about 1150, after the Reformation Gimsøy (now as the kings property) was a administration centre for mining in Telemark.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 06/10/2010 18:36:55 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 20:37:52
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Oh, no I did not really mean that he was ruthless, that was a poor choice of word on my part! Perhaps I should have said that he seemed to have a lot in comparison to his neighbors at the time, and even former church property, and one wonders about such things.
The Gjerpen church is a really beautiful building and thank you for bringing it to my attention!
I found this in wikipedia about Gimsøy monastery: "It was founded by Dag Eilivsson, probably in the second quarter of the 12th century, and his daughter Baugeid was the first abbess. The abbey was well positioned on the navigable river on the way to Skien, and was comfortably endowed with estates. By about 1500, however, the premises had been mortgaged, although the nuns continued to live there, and were permitted to stay in residence after the dissolution of the nunnery during the Reformation. The buildings burnt to the ground in 1546, and the site was cleared, leaving no visible traces." Simen Dyresen probably saw that he could acquire the mortgaged monastery, especially as it had already burned.
From the time that it was "comfortably endowed with estates" until it was sold was only 200 years, and even though it was also used to make silver coins from 1543-1546 when it burned to the ground, it seems as if it was mismanaged. The information I found online seems to indicate that it was once a very wealthy monastery with a lot of property and other churches in Bamble, so one wonders what happened.
Very interesting information and all these pieces together are starting to make a picture!
Thank you again |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 23:32:45
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That is correct, it was the GimsøyDaler that was prodused there, only 15 of them exist today, an expenciv treat for collecters.
A bit off the record, but since Dag Eilivsson was mentioned.
Dag Eilivsson, the kings Lenderman and Vidkun Johnsson from the Bjarkøy manor was the last men to leave King Magus Berføtt Olavsson when he was ambushed and fall in Ireland 1103.
They brought the king´s sword "Legbit" and his Banner/Flag back to the ships.
Legbit´s handle was made of a Walrus tooth wrapped with gold threads.
Magnus was dressed in a red silk jersey embroidered a golden lion on the back, toda Norway´s coat of arms.
Dag Elivsson traveled as crusader with young Sigurd to the holy land from 1108-1111.
His son and Baugeids brother Gregorius Dagsson, the man with the golden helmet, one of the most powerfull Lendermen in Norway and King Inge I "Krokrygg" Haraldsson´s army cheif was killed in a battle by an arrow shot on the ice at "Ranrike", todays Kungelv at Udevalla, Sweden Jan 7. 1161 and buried at Gimsøy monastery.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 15/10/2010 23:53:24 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 08:44:52
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This is really interesting, particularly that the coat of arms of Norway was from Magnus' jersey. Does "Legbit" still exist someplace? The more I read about Gimsøy monastery, the more interesting it is! It seems as if everything is becoming more interconnected! Thank you for all this information.
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17th-18th century social strata?
