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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
 Posted - 07/10/2010 : 11:05:31
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I wish Legbit still existed, perhaps one day it pops up from a grave.
False or true?
I have no way to examine this information, some of it is not online.
I wonder if Legbitt might have been a wronspelling for Kvernbitt (Bit-Bitt means bite, leg is leg and kvern is Millstone).
Kvernbitt was owned by young Håkon Adelstensfostre Haraldsson 920-61 (Håkon was fosterson to king Adelsten of England), as king known as Håkon the Good.
Kverbitt was the kings present to young Håkon when he returned home to Norway.
Kverbitt was with him when he died of blood loos after the battle of Fitjar 861 and died in his recidecce.
The Saga tells king Adelsten loved prince Håkon as his own son and Kverbitt, a Damask sword with golden handle, was the best sword made in England.
Next time I read about Kvernbitt is 1016 at the battle of Nesjar, Vestfold county, where Olav Haraldsson beat earl Svein Håkonsson and became king of Norway.
Olav gave Kvernbitt to the man who had been most important for the outcome of the battle, Brynjolv Ulvade, perhaps an ancestor to Dag Eilivsson who probably have owned Kverbitt.
The I came across the name Kvernbitt in a document from April 23. 1606, in a dispute over an inheritance in the Grevling family about a trophy weapon without mentioning what kind of weapon, only as Kvernbitt.
Kvernbitt/Legbitt would have been the Crown jewell (s) of Norway if it was found.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 07/10/2010 14:27:55 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 16:38:46
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Hi, are you an ancestor to Simen Dyresen Meen?
I have more info to share with you about him.
Kåre |
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Lislcat
Advanced member
USA
690 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 17:14:05
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Hi Kåre,
Yes, she is. She mentioned it earlier in the topic, here.
"I have a question concerning one of my ancestors, Simen Dyressen Meen of Telemark -- he seemed to be a very significant landowner in the 1500s through his lumber trade but had also a tremendous amount of profit from property and I was always curious how he had obtained so much. Here is a quote from a website, and he also seemed to have taken over church property as well which seems highly unusual." |
Lislcat |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 20:11:34
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Hei Wanda, I didn´t notice that, takk skal du ha.
Is it the Søderled branch of this family you are related to? Simen Dyresens daughter Marthe Simensdatter married to Rasmus Olsen Linna at Kragerø?
Difficult to know how he became so rich, perhaps he was a good businessman, perhaps he lended money to others with security/pledge in their farms.
Perhaps the bygdbok from Gjerpen has an answers to that.
Found more info here
It was not uncommon for wealthy farmers to own the local church which ment great prestige.
Sometimes churches were sold on auction.
It was the the communities citizen´s responsebility to maintain the church.
I believe to remember it was not until the late 1800s before the Goverment took over the resposibility for the churches in Norway.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 07/10/2010 20:32:23 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 22:34:32
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Gard Strøm is working with a description of the farms (blue page) and the cotters farms (yellow page) in Gjerpen that is not complete yet including Meen, see alphabetical 2. column from left.
Kåre |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 08:39:26
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WOW, Kåre, you posted some very interesting things last night!
Yes, I do seem to be a descendant of Simen Dyressen Meen (and therefore all his ancestors which can be confirmed) through his daughter Marthe Simensdatter. The descendancy is through her daughter Kirsten/Kjersten Rasmusdatter married to Christen Danielsen. I use the words "seem to be decended" because I am a person who needs to see documents (like the scans) or in books before I come to a conclusion, and even then I STILL try to find more supporting information. I am still working from the late 1700s and going back, finding the scans in digitalarkivet etc to verify information.
I know that there is a lot of false information out there, I found this in doing my mother's side of the family in England and it was very frustrating at first. Fortunately Ancestry started putting the original scans of documents online for its members and it made it a lot easier to confirm information, but unfortunately there have been bad transcriptions which I found in Wisconsin. I think that some people doing research in Norway sometimes want to find any link so that they can say "HA! I knew I was descended from Viking Kings!" and so they put a lot of false connections together to make this assumption.
I just ordered some Bamble bygdebok scans from the University of North Dakota so I am waiting for those to arrive this month and hopefully I can verify things a bit more. My grandmother said that her Telemark side of the family had a lot of property and money a long time ago; we thought she was joking, but maybe her mother knew stories about Simen Dyressen from HER mother. Who knows? Right now I am going one by one starting with my gg-grandparents to confirm parentage, farms, locations. I am always looking for source materials, for academic resources, etc. as I cannot get to a library at this time. It is a long process but so far I have been able to confirm almost everything with actual documents, which is good news for me.
If you have confirmed information on Marthe Simensdatter's descendants, I would be very glad to see them!!
:-( It is sad that this famous sword disappeared and I suppose that people have been wondering about this for years, and especially wondering what the Grevling family did with it!! You brought up an interesting point though: was the sword a Damascene blade (i.e. it was from Syria), or was it "damascened" (i.e. layered with iron for strength). If it was a Damascene blade, it is incredible to think of the journey it made to come into the hands of a Norseman! Through trade with Arabs and travel, only to wind up in the far north and then fought over in a family in the 17th century. It is most likely the sword was from Damascus considering the trade -- I am not sure that the damascene process was known in England as early as the 10th century. But to think of it coming all that way, passing from hand to hand perhaps sold, perhaps taken from someone in a battle is really fascinating!
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 09:17:39
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one quick question concerning the Meen descendants: was the name of Kirsten Rasmusdatter (mentioned above) Christen Danielsen or Christen Jensen? I have both names in my records and this one thing I am unsure of.
Thank you! |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 12:00:22
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Me to, its a lot of rubbish online, familytrees referring to verifiable sources appears to be honest.
The Damaskus sword´s origin was Middle east, here includes info in English
Kirsten Rasmusdatter Linna married 1666 in Bamble Christian Jensen Fostveit ab 1626-1722 acc. this family tree from Søndeled (English translation ), almost halfway down a little past the two images, start with;
Lars Christensen sine foreldre (parents) er Christen Jensen Fostveit f (born) ca 1626......
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 08/10/2010 12:02:23 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 12:42:31
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Here is how Gard Strøm´s work with the old farms in Gjerpen looks at farm Tofte/Tufte and where both Dyre Tiøstelsen and Simen Dyresen are mentioned.
Dyre as church guardian, the other guardian Arne Andersen Toftes´s son Peder Tofte owned the value of 2 Hides in Foss Lille.
(Simen Dyresen Meen hadde pant in disse 2 huder)
Simen Dyresen Meen owned mortages in these two hides, see more than half way down here
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 08/10/2010 12:42:53 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:11:24
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ok, this makes more sense to me (about Christian Danielsen being the wrong choice). I had been given the Danielsen connection by someone else and it did not seem accurate, so this confirms that my research was correct (sometimes I should just go with my "sixth sense" when I feel something is incorrect!)
Thank you for the very useful links, also for the photos of the sword! |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:00:04
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Hi, you are welcome.
It´s always good to confirm that the "sixth sense" work.
I bring up some more information for you later today regarding Meen.
Meen belonged to Gimsøy monastery 1480.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 08/10/2010 14:00:32 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 18:11:25
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Gjerpen 1612, tax register for Bratsberg (Telemark).
Simen Meen (Simenn Mehn) was a rich farmer.
He owned 42 farms or part of, some outside the municipality as Bredvik in Bamble, Jernes (Jarnes) in Efteløt sub parish in Sandsvær, Landsverk in Øvre Sandsvær, Holden in Holla, Nøreberg in Tønsberg, Hoppestad at Skien, Thudall u. Greffgiord, must be Grevjord in Tuddal in Hjartdal .
Meen was his inherit from his parents after Odelsloven mentioned in a former posting, see top page for Gjerpen parish and Simen Mens godzs (Simen Meens properties) here
Further down:
Total sum of the above:
41 and a half Hide and 3 Skin, 6 barrels, 8 Skippund and 3 Lispund of grain.
Hence a 4. part to the "Kong Majst" (his Majesty the king) which was 10 Hides and 4 1/4 Skin, one and a half barrel, 3 Skippund and 1/2-1/4 Lispund of grain and 2 Laup of Butter, total value in money;
13 and a half Daler, 22 Shilling and 2 and a half Penning.
The king was Christian 4
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 08/10/2010 19:17:18 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 22:16:59
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Good heavens! 42 farms (whole or in part) -- he must have been a busy person, in addition to his lumber business! Not to mention well-to-do, but that unfortunately it disappeared within a few generations the way that inheritances do.
The Alminnelige Pengeskatten for 1612 is a great resource, also the link for Christian IV -- I do not know as much as I should about the political history of Norway and see that I must educate myself! The joining of Denmark and Norway would have been within the lifetime of Simen and it would have made a major impact on his life, I am sure.
Have a good weekend and thank you for all the information! |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2010 : 22:40:14
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He was a very wealty man, Simen Meen.
I put in a wrong link, sorry, he owned 42 farms or in part according the 1624 census for taxes for Gjerpen, see here
Still more inf to come.
Have a good weekend.
Kåre |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2010 : 10:18:50
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Simen Meen (Simen Mhenn) paid "Tiende" a biblic tax to the church in 1623-24 and 33, Tiende means 1/10 of the income, the tax was mesured in "tn" (tønne) barrels of grain, see alphabetical here
One barrel was 139 Liter or 36,58 Gallon.
Meen (Meen comes of the norse word Mær -Mjor and means narrow) belonged to Gimsøy monastery mid. June 1480 acc this document written on paper kept in the State archives.
If the two brothers are Simens ancestors is impossible to tell, you must wait for Gard Støm´s description.
Translation;
Three priests, the civil servant in Skien and 19 "Lagrettemenn" Local judges in a case between Reidar Gunleiksen, priest in Skien and Ombudsman for the Abbess on Gimsøy, Mrs Birgitte on the one hand and the brothers Ulfhedin and Reidar Guttormsen on the other hand regarding some lakes in the eastern district which after the testemony from the local judges belonged to the monastery´s farm Meen, see here
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 09/10/2010 10:41:29 |
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17th-18th century social strata?
