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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2010 : 09:09:43
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Hej Kåre!
As I understand the translation above, Ulfhedin and Reidar Guttormsen said that the lakes belonged to them, and the representative for Gimsøy Sira Gunleiksen said they belonged to the monastery. The three priests, the civil servant and the 19 Lagrettemenn decided that the lakes belonged to the monastery. Correct?
The family I have from Simen Dyressen is as follows:
Simen Dyressen 1580-1645
Father Dyre TJØSTELSEN born about 1556, died about 1612. Married to Unknown woman
Father Tjøstel DYRESEN Meen born about 1530 died after 1558, married to (1) Liv SOLVESDATTER born about 1534 died about 1558
This also brings up an interesting point: Liv SOLVESDATTER (who was a descendant of Solve ORMARSSON Hem and Margreta BJØRNSDATTER Lindheim) had a family history of property for several generations. Because of this, I think that Liv would have also married a person of property and money which probably meant that Tjøstel DYRESEN had both of those.
Because the Abbey burned in 1546 and was cleared, it seems probable that either Tjøstel DYRESEN or his father probably thought it was a good investment and obtained the monastery property that way using the money they made from their lumber business to do it, all of this led to Simen Dyressen's wealth.
It will be interesting to know more about the history of the Meen property when it becomes available through Gard Støm.
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 11:06:34
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Some more information on Gimsøy Kloster, an important and influential institution for that area of Telemark both in terms of religion and trade from the 12th to 16th centuries.
Gimsøy kloster and Aftenposeten article on Gimsøy kloster
(Information summarized below is from Wikipedia, plus my own comments.)
As Kåre already mentioned in a previous posting, the Gimsøy Kloster was most likely created by Dag Eilivsson after returning from the Crusades with Sigurd Jorsalfare. It was built on Dag Eilivsson’s property of Gimsøy which was originally used for pasturing goats. The monastery was built in stone by British stone masons and the first nuns came from England; their presence probably predated the Oslo Nonneseter and Trondheim Bakke monasteries. The daughter of Dag Eilivsson was an abbess but probably not the first; there is only sparse information from this time.
Because the monastery was well-located and on significant travel and trade routes, the abbey became very wealthy, owning property and assets which could have come from not only purchasing of property and from financial activities, but also from legacies of people who either left property or other assets to the monastery upon their death, or who entered the monastery/cloister and gave all their worldly possessions as dower legacies to the monastery.
The monastery was closed after the Reformation of 1537 at which time King Christian III confiscated church property, merged it with other land belonging to the Crown, and the monastery was managed by sheriffs appointed by the Danish-Norwegian monarchy, and which included the family of Simen Dyressen.
There was a gradual decline in this monastery in the 1500s, especially after King Christian II had already made the major church properties into secular fiefs; it seems that the King also gave estates to men who paid an annual fee despite the fact that people in Norway did not like this idea. It is highly likely that the Meen family paid an annual fee to the King to obtain the monastery lands, particularly after the monastery burned.
When silver and copper were found in Upper Telemark as well as iron ore in Gjerpen in the 1500s, the King made the decision to turn the monastery into a place of coin production. For several years, the Gimsøy coins which were inscribed with the Norwegian lion were made here but a fire destroyed the buildings in 1546, leaving only rubble; even the old church burned as well. As people moved into the area, constructing manor houses and other buildings, and because of the silver, copper and iron ore mining in the area which led to industrial development, most traces of the monastery are gone. However, due to the recent rezoning of this area, there was an archaeological expedition on the former monastery grounds in 2007 that was looking for traces of the monastery, the crypt of the old church, old tombs, and other historical information.
The local pronunciation is still Gjemsø, even though spelling has changed to Gimsøy.
Translated from the Aftenposten article: “Gimsøy monastery had large properties in Telemark and around Oslo Fjord, and grew to become such a major trading partner and competitor to Skien that the Danish king in 1371 had to intervene and limit the monastery's trading for its own use. Skien had in fact been ‘byprivilegier’ in 1358, and citizens would have [had] a monopoly on trading "We do not know how big the monastery was, but it had at least 12 nuns, possibly more, as well as an abbess, probably novices, workers, etc. [With the] monastery discovered, the area where it is [located is] to be protected and hopefully be a future attraction, in addition to providing new knowledge about the history.”
This book looks interesting for those people who can read Norwegian!
Bergan, Halvor: Drøm og virkelighet bak klosterets murer, Gimsøy nonnekloster 1110-1540, Norgesforlaget 2002. (“Dream and reality behind the monastery walls. Gimsøy convent 1110 - 1540”) from book on Gimsøy nonnekloster
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 11:56:43
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Hi,
you are right about the disagreement concerning the lakes, they belonged to Meen under Gimsøy monastery.
It must have been seen as an important issue, perhaps because the monastery was involved.
19 "Lagrettemenn" Local judges were involved, normally 3-5 "Lagrettemenn" judged in cases like this.
The Hem and Lindheim genealogy comes here, page 2-3-4 and 5, it also involve my Lindheim family from Sauherad.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 11/10/2010 13:42:21 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 12:52:09
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Sigurd Jorsalfare Magussson was very young, 18, when he went as crusader to the holy land with 60 Longship, he was son of Magnus Berføtt Olavsson who fall in Ireland 1103 with Dag Eilivsson by his side.
Perhaps Dag was guardian for the youg king?
1111 the Norwegian fleet were invited by the Emporer of Istanbul/Constantinople to visit him, he was well informed about the many achivements they had done , the Golden gate "Gullvarta" was opened for them, the streets was decorated with gold, jewels and expencive clothes.
Riding in on horses Sigurd told his men " Do not look surprised over all the wealt, pretend that you are used to it"
Many of his men tok service in the Emporers guard, the viking guard called "Væringhæren" or "Den øksebørende Brigade" The ax-bearing Brigade on total 5000 men lived in barracks outside the city, only 1000 were allowed to be inside the citywalls at the same time.
The Viking army served as guardsmen for the Emporers for ab. 300 years.
The Saga written in the early 1200´s tells Sigurd also visited an arena for horse races named Hippodromen in Constantinopel which still exist.
King Olav Haraldsson´s (remember Kvernbitt) sword "Neite", norse Hneitir which he used in the battle of Stiklestad 1030 when he fall hang over the altar in the vikings church "Olavskirken" Olav´s church, in Constantinopel.
Gimsøy was probaly located where the former Union paper mill in Skien is located.
Archaeologists will start exavation in that area.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 11/10/2010 13:20:46 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:12:36
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Hello again -- I had to smile because I read your posting on Saksabjørn and it never occurred to me that it was connected to you! There is so much to sort through and understand, and it is fascinating to see how everything is connected, all pieces of an historical puzzle.
It will take me some time to read all of your research and information on the Hem and Lindheim people.
I have a problem with the family of Liv SOLVESDATTER because it seems as if there are people missing.
As I posted above, Tjøstel DYRESEN Meen was married to (1) Liv SOLVESDATTER born about 1534 died about 1558. She is descended from Solve Ormarsson Hem and Maritte Bjørnsdatter Lindheim through their son Anund SOLVESSON Hem. However, I have questions about the dates because it seems that there are gaps in information.
These are the names and dates I have:
Solve ORMARSSEN Hem 1350-1442 married to Margreta BJØRNSDATTER Lindheim 1350/59 -- ?
Anund SOLVESEN Hem 1387-1477 married to ? TORSDATTER Linderygg unknown birth and death dates
Solve ANUNDSEN born ? 1420 married to (?) Magnhilde Amundsdatter
(here is where there seems to be people missing)
Liv SOLVESDATTER Hem born around 1534 and died 1558
So far, every online source has shown that Solve ANUNDSEN was Liv's father even with the problems for the dates, but the Solve Anundsen born about 1420 could not be Liv's father if (and this is still something I need to confirm) she was really born in 1534. Is it possible that you have any information about the real father of Liv SOLVESDATTER? The same online sources all say that Liv is descended from Solve ORMARSEN but the dates are incorrect.
Thank you!
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:42:04
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Hi, its a small world.
A laugh prolongs life.
I think I have the solution, I will look into it later today for more information .
Liv was probably daughter to Solve Ormarsson´s son Solve Solvesson mentiond 1449, he and a brother Thorleif named after his mothers father Thorleif Saksabjørnsson Lindheim settled down in Gjerpen.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 11/10/2010 13:57:14 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 14:38:43
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yes it is a small world and keeps getting smaller! I keep finding these amazing coincidences in my research, sometimes it is even bizarre to find how close the people I know (even friends in different parts of the world) are connected to me. This is what is fun about genealogy -- you never know what you will find.
Thank you for looking for this !! |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 17:07:51
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It is a small wold,
seems like we have the same forefather, Thorbjørn Saxabjørnsson Lindheim, Lindheim is probaly the oldest farm in Sauherad. Lindheim means Sheltered home.
His father Saxabjørn was the first man with that name known in Norway we knows about, made of the two names Saxa and Bjørn (Bear)
Solve Ormarsson and Margrethe Bjørnsdatter Lindheim got three sons, Agmund (inherit Hem), Solve and Thorleif mentioned in a document Sept. 9. 1448 when he states a sale for his mother.
Later Solve settled down on Hanes in Skien.
His brother Thorleif (Thorlefuer Solueson) is mentioned in a document from Feb. 25. 1439 and Oct. 28. 1448.
Feb. 25. 1439 Mattis Torgeirsson from Holm in Gjerpen (a distant familymember to the Hem family) on bahalf of the farmers negosiated with Sigrid Niculasdatter Brunla when the uprisingleader Halvard Gråtopp and his men raided Brunla Manor and reached Oslo before they were stopped 1438.
Solve (Salve) Solvesen and his son Thorleif Solve (Salve)sson both participated in the uprising and where judged to pay compesation to Sigrid Niculasdatter Galle and her son in-law Hartvig Krummedige, see the document here.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 11/10/2010 18:02:53 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 18:10:54
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Correction, one generation wrong, sorry:
I could not get it to fit.
Live Solvesdatterer who married Tjøstel (Dyresen) Meen was daughter to Solve Agmnudsson Hem who settled down on Lofts-Borge in Skien and Magnild Aamundsdatter, his father was Agmund Solvesson Hem (Salve Salvesson´s older brother) Agmund inherit Hem, married to a daugter to Tord Linderygg (Lønnerygg) in Bamble.
It must have been an extra beautiful Loft, todays Stabbur (Storehouse for food, grain,furn, meat, fish etc), on Borge since the farm was named Lofts-Borge.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 11/10/2010 18:31:53 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 20:06:39
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Hi
Normally noblefamilies married in noblefamilies, farmers children to peers and poor peole married poor people.
It happened a few times that ordinary people were nobled by the king if they had shown great curage formulas other events that the king appreciated extra.
The probate register Mai. 21. 1558 on Borge for Solve Borge b. ab. 1500 and Magnhild Amundsdatter:
A Summary:
Severin Ros, Mayor in Skien, a citzen fron the same plece, the Sheriff on Høfund and three other men announces that they had witnessed the probate after Solve Borge (in Gjerpen) and his wife Magnhild Anundsdatter, where they son Anund Solvesson and the 4. daughters Lif (Live) Aase, Thorbjørg and Thora Solvesdøtre got shares the farms in Gjerpen, Sandsvær and Slemdal (Siljan)
The farms in Sansvær were Mørk, Nes and Lansdsverk.
Nes and Landsverk was their mother Magnhild´s inheritance
A copy of the document written on parchment kept in Deichmanske bibliotek (library)
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 13/10/2010 21:53:44 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 21:07:31
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Thank you for all this information, Kåre, it is greatly appreciated and it represents a very important fact: that you have done a lot of research on the history of this region of Telemark :-D
Ever since I saw the name "Saxabjørn" and heard what a rare name it was, I have wanted to find out more about this person! As far as I can see it means "Bear Trap", right? and if that is the true, we have to wonder how he got the name or if it was a "nickname"? I was hoping that my "sixth sense" about this line turned out to be true and I am glad that this is so. It is just unfortunate that the name was not given to many succeeding generations. There are many Anders, Per, and Knuds, but the interesting and unique name of Saxabjørn seems to have died out after the Middle ages.
Now the difficult part is putting all of this together in charts and with biographies! But because it is also fun to see how it all comes together I will enjoy doing it., even the Ahnentafels!
Thank you again for all your help, Kåre, and have a pleasant evening! Kathy
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 21:31:14
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| PS: Your comment above about the øksebørende Brigade of 5000 axe-wielding warriors made me laugh -- If I had been in charge of the city gates at that time, I would not have let any more than 10 inside the city walls, not 1000! To imagine 5000 warriors all with axes is incredible. To imagine 5000 warriors with axes and all drinking too much mead or ale is even worse! |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 11:31:52
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Hi, how is weather in Italy?
Minus 2 Celsius in eastern Norway this morning.
It was an interesting suggestion on the name Saxabjørn, who knows, "Bjørnesaks" in Norwegian Bear trap
Sax-Saks also means scissor, not suitable for a name, ScissorBear-SaxeBjørn.
Think of the ax-bearing Vikings as your ancestors, Væring, norse Væringjar means to swear an oath, The sworn army.
The favourite weapon was the battle ax, easier to handle in a close range fighting.
More Meen information from farm Fossjordet in Gjepen, thanks to Gard Strøm.
The farm was 1398 owned by Gimsøy monastery, mentioned in Bishop Eysteins "Rødebok" Farm register.
A "Kongebrev" Letter from the king from the 1590s tells that farm Skavan on Opphaugen was Simen Meen´s parents "Odelsgods" see Odelsretten.
Ab. 1590 he "Makeskiftet" exchanged farm with Kronen- The Crown (the king´s representatives) Schaven-Skavan against Ødegaarden Fossejord
In 1615 in Alexander Rabe von Pappenheims "Rødebok" for Gjerpen Simen Meen owned the value of 2 Hides in Meen.
When Simen died ab. 1650 his son Christan Simensen Augestad inherit 1 Hide and 4 1/2 Skin in Meen, Simen Meen´s two other sons, Gunder and Simen, inherits 7 1/2 Skin.
Fossjord was for many years a sub farm under Augestad, Christian cultivated both farms 1664, he settled down on N. (Lower) Grini about 1671.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 12/10/2010 13:36:18 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 12:26:31
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I think it will be difficult to get more information regarding your Meen family until Gard Støm arrives with more information.
If you have questions, pleace contact me.
You will need time to organize all the info.
Need a big wall to put together your family-tree Kathy.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 12/10/2010 12:27:36 |
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kpeterson
Junior member
Italy
62 Posts |
Posted - 13/10/2010 : 12:30:04
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It was a very beautiful day here, about 19 C, but the weather changed about 15 minutes ago and now it looks like rain. It is supposed to rain every day for the rest of the week; perhaps we will also get snow again this winter which is very rare.
I have another thought on the origin of the name Saxabjørn (and of course we will never know anything, but it is fun to speculate on his name!) Perhaps it is our translation of a derivative of the word Saxon at the time of Charlemagne: Saksit (Finnish), Saxon, Sachsen. And then this would change the meaning of the name Saxabjørn to be something like Saxon Bjørn, or Sachse(n)bjørn. If this is a possibility, then perhaps Saxabjørn was actually of Saxon origin and had been a Saxon warrior under perhaps Ludwig of Saxony, had made his name and fortune, and gone to Norway.
I will try to make some sort of informal chart for assessing value of property etc. and pass it on as it will be easier to follow. It won't be perfect but perhaps a bit easier. It is difficult to give a true value to property of medieval times. I try to find out what a person with property assessed at 1 hide could buy at that time and give a value to it for the present day. This is always almost impossible because their needs and the value that they gave to things was different than what we consider valuable, but at least we get a general idea.
I have started making the numbered charts of ancestors -- makes it easier to follow! Putting this all together is like a giant puzzle but as I like to make order from chaos, it is actually fun to do this. All these pieces of puzzle are starting to make a very interesting picture!
The links and information you have sent are invaluable, I owe you many thanks, Kåre for all your help in this.
Have a very good afternoon!
Kathy
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17th-18th century social strata?
