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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2014 : 01:05:32
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OK, back home now and I've had chance to sift through all these great responses...
It seems to me that working back from the confirmed marriage certificate which gave Julius Johnson Larsen as the father, there was only two solid matches for baptisms in Norway, but unfortunately these both seem to have to be discounted for the following reasons:
Name: Jenny Larsen
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 11 aug 1881
Baptism Place: Jacob, Oslo, Oslo, Norway
Father: Julius Larsen
Mother: Lina
FHL Film Number: 1282965
(birth certificate states "død" i.e. dead, supported by DOB being same date as baptism and baptism taking place at home)
Name: Jenny Lydia Margit Larsen
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 26 apr 1882
Baptism Place: Gronland Menighet, Oslo, Akershus, Norway
Father: Julius Larsen
Mother: Marie Jonasdatter
FHL Film Number: 1282503
(but baptism record shows a "+" probably also implying died, supported by baptism being only 10 days after DOB)
There's certainly some possibilities also thrown up by other research proposed here, but with no corroboration it's just not strong enough to base any assumptions on. At least I've got a father's name for Jenny now, but think I've ground to a (hopefully temporary) halt again, certainly not going to give up though!
Thanks for everyone's tremendous help and efforts to date. |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 02:44:20
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to be reposted: portrait of Jenny
I hope you don't mind if I dusted it (let me if you do!) Just figured out how to post a photo. Create an account at tiny pics (website), upload image, copy "IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards," paste into forum text box, submit. I don't know if this is correct way to post a photo, Neil, but it works.
I see that Jenny has been hard to find, kind of thought she would turn up by now. Disappointing. |
Edited by - JaneC on 18/03/2014 20:42:55 |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 10:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil Jones
OK, back home now and I've had chance to sift through all these great responses...
It seems to me that working back from the confirmed marriage certificate which gave Julius Johnson Larsen as the father, there was only two solid matches for baptisms in Norway, but unfortunately these both seem to have to be discounted for the following reasons:
Name: Jenny Larsen
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 11 aug 1881
Baptism Place: Jacob, Oslo, Oslo, Norway
Father: Julius Larsen
Mother: Lina
FHL Film Number: 1282965
(birth certificate states "død" i.e. dead, supported by DOB being same date as baptism and baptism taking place at home)
Name: Jenny Lydia Margit Larsen
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 26 apr 1882
Baptism Place: Gronland Menighet, Oslo, Akershus, Norway
Father: Julius Larsen
Mother: Marie Jonasdatter
FHL Film Number: 1282503
(but baptism record shows a "+" probably also implying died, supported by baptism being only 10 days after DOB)
There's certainly some possibilities also thrown up by other research proposed here, but with no corroboration it's just not strong enough to base any assumptions on. At least I've got a father's name for Jenny now, but think I've ground to a (hopefully temporary) halt again, certainly not going to give up though!
Thanks for everyone's tremendous help and efforts to date.
Neil, Jenny's birth 1880-ish suggests her father was probably born in the 1850-1860 range. UK marriage certificates of this period typically include information fields which might yield additional clues to help the Forum narrow down the candidates thrown up by the 1900 Norwegian census :
1. what occupation is shown for Jenny
2. is her residence at time of marriage in UK or Norway
3. does the reference to the bride's father's name mention whether he is deceased
4. what occupation is given for her father
5. who were the two witnesses - both British names, or if a Norwegian name, might one have been eg her brother or sister
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 11:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
What a beautiful portrait. She's so lovely - and that dress is to die for!
I hope you don't mind if I dusted it (let me if you do!)
Not at all, thanks very much for cleaning it up and posting it
I think as David says, my next avenue has to be the marriage certificate, though as mentioned previously I think one of my wider family has already been down that road.
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Edited by - Neil Jones on 09/03/2014 11:41:27 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2014 : 12:25:28
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| Well, if the actual marriage certificate is like the one in Christian Tromm then it might also tell her father's occupation which might help pare a few down. Every little bit helps. |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 11:26:05
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Well I've now received the marriage certificate:
I don't think it quite brings the breakthrough that I was maybe hoping for though - a few facts that it does confirm or support though:
- Name clearly shows as Larson rather than Larsen
- Age shows as 24 as at 22 Sep 02. If I combine this with her declared age of 32 on 2 Apr 11 as per the 1911 census, this gives me a DOB between 3 Apr - 22 Sep 1878 rather than the "abt 1881" I'd previously been working with
- Confirms father as Julius Johnson Larson (sailor). I guess sailors would often have been missed of censuses if they were at sea at the date of the census?
- Confirms husband as Alfred Edward Spindley (fireman) - presumably of the boiler-stoking find rather than a firefighter (Fireman Ice Factory in 1911 census)
- Witnesses are K Spindley and W R David (?) - no obvious Norwegian connection there unfortunately.
I've also been digging around my own relations for any more information on Jenny, but have only come up with a few more snippets:
Jenny was already lodging at Alfred's father's house in Lincolnshire prior to the wedding (it's her given residence on the marriage certificate). How long for though, I don't know. So it's quite possible that this is how Alfred and her met and she was already in the UK for other reasons, rather than her relocating to the UK to get married.
The cause of her death in 1911 was Spanish Influenza - presumably the same for Alfred as he died about 10 days earlier of "disease" according to the Royal Navy War Graves Role.
It's a shame that the marriage certificate didn't yield anything more as I'm coincidentally flying out to Oslo for a couple of days later today, and it would have been a great opportunity to look up an old address if one had come to light. Never mind, the search continues... |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 12:27:47
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Sailoring is a great clue. There are 3 whose first name included Julius, who had occupations starting with sø (selecting from that for sømand, søfarende, etc.) and a last name starting with L. One of these is too young but the family circumstance was quite interesting so included anyway: This list could also be expanded to include occupations starting with "mat" for matros (sailor), "ski" for skib____, skipper, skip_____.
Vestfold, Stokke, Skarp-borge
Julius Larsen b. 1860 unmarried, temp in England
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=4&filnamn=f00720&gardpostnr=628&personpostnr=3467&merk=3467#ovre
Kristiania
Anders Julius Larsen b Tønsberg 1882
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=13&filnamn=f00301&gardpostnr=4075&personpostnr=109918&merk=109918#ovre
Aust-Agder, Dybvaag, Alfheim No.2
Julius Larsen b. 1859 is married temp. Newcastle Australia;
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=16&filnamn=f00915&gardpostnr=195&personpostnr=1023&merk=1023#ovre
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Edited by - jkmarler on 18/03/2014 14:55:39 |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 12:36:31
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| One other potential clue - Jenny and Alfred called their son (my grandfather) Robert Olaves Spindley - Olaves being an very unusual for an English name, but despite its obvious similarities to "Olaf" is doesn't seem to be a common Scandinavian name as far as I can see either! |
Edited by - Neil Jones on 18/03/2014 12:36:57 |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 12:56:17
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| Sorry that was from the 1900 Norwegian census... |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 13:03:07
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| I updated the 2 born 1878 Jenny on my list on page 1 with their baptismal information. |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 18:54:01
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A possible clue from the marriage cert Neil posted.
The bride's father is clearly named as Julius Johnson Larsen, occupation sailor. We can reasonably presume he's still alive at the time of the wedding - other UK marriage certs I have seen usually include "deceased" if the father of the bride or groom has passed away at the time of marriage.
I looked for a Julius Larsen born before say 1860 (Jenny born 1878) in the 1900 Norwegian census - didn't find an obvious candidate, but a more experienced eye than mine might do so.
And I think I recall from some other post there is a specific part of the 1900 census for sailors on Norwegian vessels in foreign ports ?? Maybe someone familiar with that could check it out.
Familysearch has a few marriages for Julius Larsen in the period (say) 1865 - 1878. Maybe an interesting one is Julius Larsen marrying Nicoline Annette Pedersen in Gronland Parish Church, Oslo on 18 October 1874.
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?urnread_imagesize=gigant&info=ingen&hode=nei&show=259&uid=348208&js=j
Record #112
The bridegroom's father is given as Lars Johannesen - I'm afraid the rest of the text in the record entry defeats my (extremely limited !!) Norwegian - but could that be a link to Jenny's father calling himself Julius Johnson Larsen ?? |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 18/03/2014 : 19:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by David Yaw
A possible clue from the marriage cert Neil posted.
The bride's father is clearly named as Julius Johnson Larsen, occupation sailor. We can reasonably presume he's still alive at the time of the wedding - other UK marriage certs I have seen usually include "deceased" if the father of the bride or groom has passed away at the time of marriage.
I looked for a Julius Larsen born before say 1860 (Jenny born 1878) in the 1900 Norwegian census - didn't find an obvious candidate, but a more experienced eye than mine might do so.
And I think I recall from some other post there is a specific part of the 1900 census for sailors on Norwegian vessels in foreign ports ?? Maybe someone familiar with that could check it out.
Familysearch has a few marriages for Julius Larsen in the period (say) 1865 - 1878. Maybe an interesting one is Julius Larsen marrying Nicoline Annette Pedersen in Gronland Parish Church, Oslo on 18 October 1874.
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?urnread_imagesize=gigant&info=ingen&hode=nei&show=259&uid=348208&js=j
Record #112
The bridegroom's father is given as Lars Johannesen - I'm afraid the rest of the text in the record entry defeats my (extremely limited !!) Norwegian - but could that be a link to Jenny's father calling himself Julius Johnson Larsen ??
The link didn't work for me. Addresses copied from browser window in the parish registers section don't work. Here is the full information
Source information: Oslo county, Grønland, Parish register (official) nr. 5 (1869-1880), Marriage records 1874, page 265.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5788&idx_id=5788&uid=ny&idx_side=-259
Julius' occupation is "fyrboder" which means, I think, "fire builder" stoker as in the furnace or engine. It says he was born in Bærum.
The sailor's census in 1900 seems to include those folks on boats in harbors etc. I haven't seen any about sailors actually on the high seas unless they are counted as temporarily away in the main listing of their family. But perhaps others on forum have had more experience with the sailor's census than I and can speak better to that. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 18/03/2014 19:21:46 |
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Jenny Larsen (Larson) 1881-1919
