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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
 Posted - 19/03/2014 : 16:26:34
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quote:
One other potential clue - Jenny and Alfred called their son (my grandfather) Robert Olaves Spindley - Olaves being an very unusual for an English name, but despite its obvious similarities to "Olaf" is doesn't seem to be a common Scandinavian name as far as I can see either!
Here is an interesting Jenny with about right birth year, fahter Julius and mother Olava
Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927 about Jenny Lovise Johannesen
Name: Jenny Lovise Johannesen
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 13 des 1878 (13 Dec 1878)
Baptism Date: 2 jun 1879
Baptism Place: Oslo, Oslo, Norway
Father's Age: 1856
Mother's Age: 1850
Father: Julius Johannesen
Mother: Olava Mathea Olsdr
FHL Film Number: 1282503
Reference ID: BK7 )P47 CN131 |
Edited by - AntonH on 19/03/2014 16:28:29 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 16:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
quote:
One other potential clue - Jenny and Alfred called their son (my grandfather) Robert Olaves Spindley - Olaves being an very unusual for an English name, but despite its obvious similarities to "Olaf" is doesn't seem to be a common Scandinavian name as far as I can see either!
Here is an interesting Jenny with about right birth year, fahter Julius and mother Olava
Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927 about Jenny Lovise Johannesen
Name: Jenny Lovise Johannesen
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 13 des 1878 (13 Dec 1878)
Baptism Date: 2 jun 1879
Baptism Place: Oslo, Oslo, Norway
Father's Age: 1856
Mother's Age: 1850
Father: Julius Johannesen
Mother: Olava Mathea Olsdr
FHL Film Number: 1282503
Reference ID: BK7 )P47 CN131
#131 Jenny Lovise:
Source information: Oslo county, Grønland, Parish register (official) nr. 7 (1878-1888), Birth and baptism records 1879, page 47.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5790&idx_id=5790&uid=ny&idx_side=-52
Still single and living in Oslo in 1910:
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036392176575 |
Edited by - jkmarler on 19/03/2014 16:41:38 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 17:46:03
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1900 Census first name Jenny, born 1878, last name starting with J, excluding married, none of those in the household had a father named Julius:
Jenny Jacobsen
1878 Kristiania d ug Bogbinderske : Jens Bjelkes Gade 1 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0301 Kristiania kjøpstad
Jenny Johansen
1878 Mjøndalen tj ug Hjelp i Huset : Thv. Meyers Gade 39 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0301 Kristiania kjøpstad
Jenny Jensen
1878 Spydeberg ug Butikjomfru : Gøtheborgsgaden 23 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0301 Kristiania kjøpstad
Jenny Marie Johansen
1878 Kristiania d ug : Sofies Plads 2 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0301 Kristiania kjøpstad
Jenny Johnsen
1878 Gildeskaal fl ug Arbeider i Armeens Laboratorium : Kirke Gade 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 1601 Trondheim
Jenny Kristine Johansd.
1878 Modum herred* d ug Datter Gaar Moderen tilhaande i Huset Modums: Nymoen 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0623 Modum herred
Jenny Johnson
1878 Gjerpen d ug Kontordame Gjerpen: Rosenberg (gaard) 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0812 Gjerpen herred
Jenny K. Jens.
1878 Dypvåg herred* d ug Husbestyrerinde Dybvaag: Stensøen 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0915 Dypvåg herred
Jenny Jonas
1878 Vadsø d ug Husgjerning : Stockflethsgade 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 2003 Vadsø kjøpstad
Jenny Johansen
1878 Kristiania tj ug Serveringspige paa cafe : Grændsegade 1 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0301 Kristiania kjøpstad
Jenny Kraline Johansen
1878 Eidsvoll herred* D ug Husstel Eidsvold: Stensby Skolegaard 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0237 Eidsvoll herred
Jenny J Askerud
1878 Kristiania Logerende sammen med Alvilde Disch og Malla Ruud ug Løitn. i Frelsesarmeen Gjøvik: P. Skonnords Gaard 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0502 Gjøvik kjøpstad
Jenny Camilla Johns.
1878 Drammen kjøpstad* d ug Til Hjælp i Husholdningen : Torvet 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0602 Drammen kjøpstad
Jenny Jørgensen 1878 Sandar d ug Husgjerning, Datter : Aarøe 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 0724 Sandeherred herred (included because her father's first name is Gullik & because of personal experience with a Norwegian in US who went from Gullick to Julius.)
Jenny Barring (included because her father was named Lars Larsen and he was a fisherman)
1878 Vadsø d ug Hj. Datter : Havnegade 03.12.1900 Folketelling 1900 for 2003 Vadsø kjøpstad
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Edited by - jkmarler on 19/03/2014 18:25:13 |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 18:13:22
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Thanks for all the ongoing support everyone - I'm actually sending this looking down on a snowy Norway from my aircraft window, thanks to free in-flight wifi 
I had an interesting chat with a Norwegian colleague in Oslo earlier today - he said it used to be common practice in Scandinavia if you were emigrating from one country to another to change your name to the local equivalent to fit in better. This might be the difference of a change of spelling, such as the possible change of "Larsen" to "Larson" that I think we might have here, or in the example that he gave me of his great-grandparents moving from Sweden to Norway, an actual change of name (maybe something like Johnson to Johanssen).
Unfortunately, while this is very interesting, it could mean that Jenny Larson didn't even originally go by that name in Norway, and likewise her father, Julius Johnson Larson may have adopted that variant of his original name if he also relocated to the UK with Jenny, or perhaps had even been born in one of the other Nordic countries.
The trouble is, once you start searching with names that possibly could have been changed, it opens up loads of potential matches with no way of actually establishing with any certainty if any of them were the people I'm trying to find.
Hmmm... |
Edited by - Neil Jones on 19/03/2014 18:15:12 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 18:32:41
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Naming customs in Norway and England were different. England had for a long time, taken the father's surname as each family member's surname. Parts of Norway were in 1900 still following the old traditional pattern of assuming a surname based on the father's first name with the addition of son or daughter depending on the person's sex. So Jenny could have been an actual daughter of Lars and would likely have been known as Larsdatter. Datter names in US experience disappear first because there was no like tradition in US. But traditions were undergoing transformation at varying rates so you have to search. In 1923 a law was passed requiring each Norwegian to take a permanent surname.
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 22:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil Jones
.... it could mean that Jenny Larson didn't even originally go by that name in Norway, and likewise her father, Julius Johnson Larson may have adopted that variant of his original name if he also relocated to the UK with Jenny, or perhaps had even been born in one of the other Nordic countries.
True, Neil.
Below, found on International Find-a-Grave:
Fireman Julius J Larsen
Birth: unknown
Death: Feb. 26, 1916
Inscription:
Mercantile Marine
Burial: Tower Hill Memorial, London, Greater London, England
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=LA&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GScntry=5&GSsr=4801&GRid=15237286&
too young to be her father...
UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
Name: Julius Larsen
Age: 52
Birth Date: abt 1864
Death Date: 26 Feb 1916
Cemetery: Mercantile Marine Mem Part V
Burial Country: England
Father: Jens Larsen
Mother: Margarita Larsen
Region or Memorial: Memorial Register
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Edited by - JaneC on 19/03/2014 22:19:34 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 22:37:15
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Here is a Julius Larsen who is perhaps a match to the Julius Larsen. Occupation is listed as a sailor. He is listed being born in Denmark, but his wife Ellen is listed as being born in Norway. Also found in the 1901 Census, still no children, still listed as a sailor.
1891 England Census
Name: Julius Larsen
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen Larsen
Gender: Male
Where born: Denmark
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Neighbors:
Piece: 3940
Folio: 8
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Julius Larsen 27
Ellen Larsen 26 |
Edited by - AntonH on 19/03/2014 22:37:51 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 23:10:49
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Here is an interesting person. Did someone mistakenly change an L to a J?
Looking at the orginal it could easily be a L, also I think that Isabella is 63 not 23 and Walter and Laura are her son and daughter. In the 1891 Census she is listed as being born in 1838.
1901 England Census
Name: Jenny Jarsen
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Norway
Civil Parish: Clee
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Registration district: Grimsby
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Neighbors:
Piece: 3093
Folio: 69
Page Number: 12
Household schedule number: 76
Household Members:
Name Age
Isabella A Beeley 23
Walter H Beeley 21
Laura I Beeley 39
Jenny Jarsen 23 |
Edited by - AntonH on 19/03/2014 23:30:06 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 23:20:05
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Location of Jenny Jarsen in 1901 Census matches well with location of Jenny Larsen in her marriage.
England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Jenny Larson
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1902
Registration district: Grimsby
Inferred County: Lincolnshire
Volume Number: 7a
Page Number: 1293
Records on Page:
Name
Lizzie Foster
Jenny Larson
George Edwin Lingard
Alfred Edward Spindley |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2014 : 23:39:05
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| That certainly looks like Jenny Larsen in the 1901! Good find!! |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2014 : 01:05:15
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ENGINEMAN
A. E. SPINDLEY, M. M. R.
H.M.S. "EAGLET"
15TH MARCH 1919 AGE 39
ALSO HIS BELOVED WIFE JENNY
DIED MARCH 28TH 19xx xxE 39
1919 AGE 39 is partially obscured by flower leaves
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Edited by - JaneC on 20/03/2014 01:07:05 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2014 : 06:19:55
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Just for curiosity I looked through the emigration databases at the Digitalarkivet and found that exceedingly few people expressed their destination was England. In fact of all the thousands of names contained in the 13 or so databases I found only 2. Yet there are significant numbers of Norwegians found in every English census year. It makes me wonder if they originally started out with the idea of going to US and then something on the feeder ship trip to England made them change their mind and stay in England rather than going on?
And coincidentally (or not) 1/2 of those going to England are going to Grimsby:
27195 Kristiansand 166 1895 Mars 15 Hans Theodor Askeland m Skibsfører 1864 Farsund Grimsby Pr. England REISTE MULIGENS TIL NEW YORK. DAMPSKIB KAMEO Dampskib
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Edited by - jkmarler on 21/03/2014 17:07:51 |
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David Yaw
Medium member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2014 : 09:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
That certainly looks like Jenny Larsen in the 1901! Good find!!
Lambert Road where Jenny is living in 1901 and Willingham Street where Alfred was living in 1901 and where the couple were living in 1911 lie either side of the A16 highway in Grimsby - the two streets almost intersect at the A16, and both are only 500 metres or so from the fish docks which would have been very busy at that time.
Isabella Beeley with whom Jenny was living in 1901 was indeed 63 at the census. I checked out the 1891 census - Jenny not living with them at that time, so presumption is she arrived in the few years before 1901.
Apart from Grimsby being a busy fishing port itself, its only 20 km as the crow flies from Hull across the River Humber - although further then by road as the famous Humber Bridge was only built much later. Jenny could have easily arrived at either port. |
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Neil Jones
Starting member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2014 : 11:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
Here is an interesting person. Did someone mistakenly change an L to a J?
Looking at the orginal it could easily be a L, also I think that Isabella is 63 not 23 and Walter and Laura are her son and daughter. In the 1891 Census she is listed as being born in 1838.
Wow, what a great find! How did you come across that?
I know it's tempting to clutch at straws when struggling to find information, but this really does seem too much to be just a coincidence. However, looking at the original document I think it does say Jarsen rather than Larsen. The flourish on the first letter is exactly the same as on the "J" for Jenny, and different from the "L" for Laura in the entry directly above it. However, weighing up all the other facts at the moment I think it's still fair to assume that this was simply an error by whoever compiled the original document.
quote:
Originally posted by David Yaw
Lambert Road where Jenny is living in 1901 and Willingham Street where Alfred was living in 1901 and where the couple were living in 1911 lie either side of the A16 highway in Grimsby - the two streets almost intersect at the A16, and both are only 500 metres or so from the fish docks which would have been very busy at that time.
Although the census page does start with Lambert Road, Jenny is listed at Oakfield House, Welholme Road which does actually intersect Willingham Street.
This really does seem to have all the ingredients for a positive match.
quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Here is A.E. Spindley in findagrave--not sure if this has been posted before-- The picture is not very clear but if you enlarge and look just above the flowers, there is an inscription that reads "beloved wife". It might be of interest to contact the sexton of the cemetery to see if they might have any information in their records about her birthdate and origin in Norway....
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=spindley&GSfn=a&GSmn=e&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GScntry=5&GSob=n&GRid=59958641&df=all&
I'm embarassed to say that I've looked at that very photo loads of times, and never once did I spot the inscription about Jenny at the base. |
Edited by - Neil Jones on 20/03/2014 11:12:35 |
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Jenny Larsen (Larson) 1881-1919
