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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
 Posted - 28/05/2014 : 02:21:53
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Investigating the Smedsland-slekta back in time, I came across this reference for Karen Sørensdatter Schivie. It is if I understand this correctly a Probate reference, however it is difficult for me to read. Could someone explain to me what this is and is the whole document referencing Karen Schive or is just part of the record dealing with her. I confess I cannot find a readable name in the document.
http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/24455/137/?size=gigant&mode=0
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Edited by - AntonH on 28/05/2014 02:23:04 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2014 : 03:25:37
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Well, I don't claim expertise with this but starting on the left hand page, the names I see are these:
Line 1: ___________________________Jorn Sørens., 15 years
Line 2: ____________________Anna Sørensdatter
Line 3: _____________________________________Jonas
Line 4: Lars., 15 years________________________________
Line 5: _____Larsdatter
Line 7: ___________________man Fridrich ___ s.
Line 8 ________________________________________
Line 9: _____________Bret Larsdatter married with
Line 10: Gundleif Ols.______________Marja
Line 11: Larsdatter married with _________ _______
Line 12: from ________ _____
Line 13: Larsd. married with Elling Tostens.
Line 14: ________________ Ingeri Larsd.
Line 15: married with Corporal _________________
And the Lars sons and daughters could be Lass sons or daughters. |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 05:05:17
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Thanks Jackie, I think that what you have concluded helps me understand the Record. It may be that the people listed are surviving relatives, sons and daughters etc. of Karen Scihve who died in 1733. However the page previous to the posted one lists a Iver Andersen Lem Søren. That makes me queston if this is really about Karen Sørensdatter Schive.
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 05:16:37
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It is interesting to compare this Probate Record with the descripton given by John Follesdal.
The contents of a probate record
Norwegian probate records can be difficult to read because they were handwritten in Gothic script. Prior to studying such a record it is therefore important to read up on how to decipher old Gothic script. When you do sit down to study the probate of your ancestor you should first determine the structure of the document and then begin to decipher the words. Skip over the words that you cannot decipher and go back to them as you become more familiar with the handwriting used in the particular document that you are studying.
The structure of the probate record follows a fairly standard format. The first paragraph or two will usually identify the date the probate was registered, the name of the deceased, the name of a surviving spouse and other heirs, the names of the verger (guardians of minors), and perhaps the names of the lensmann, the assessors, and the sorenskriver. It is common to find that an heir has been omitted from the list of heirs, so you should always double check further down in the document where you will find a list of the persons who received property when the estate was distributed. (In probate records from the mid-1800's and onward this information is found in the slutningsprotokoll or utlodningsprotokoll).
The main body of the document will contain a balance sheet, very similar to the balance sheet that accountants use today. It will have a list of assets followed by a list of liabilities (debts). The list of assets is quite detailed, and contains not only information about any real estate that the decedent owned, but also a list of personal property such as clothing, furniture, farming equipment, etc. The list of debts is also quite detailed.
At the end of the document you will find information about the utlodning - the distribution of the property (who received what). As noted above, this list can be more complete than the list of heirs found at the beginning of the document. With regards to the distribution of property, you should also keep in mind that for many years the law provided that a son would inherit twice as much as a daughter. This did not change until 1854 when the law was changed to provide for equal division between brother and sister.
Norwegian probate records are an important source of information for a genealogist. Not only do these records give us information about the names of family members, but we also find a wealth of information about the living conditions of our ancestors. The probate records paint a picture for us which allows us to see how our ancestors lived. While it is time consuming to translate and study these records, the results are well worth the effort. As with so many other Norwegian records, you can order microfilm copies of Norwegian probate records at your local mormon Family History Center. |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 05:54:27
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Working with the Digitalarkivet website and looking at the various data bases for Probate turns up this entry for Lister (1733-1735)
http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/24455/8/?size=gigant&mode=0
Under the S we find Svindal, Vestre, Grindheim Karen Søvrensdtr. 126
That information matches up well with the pages from the earliest posted link above and matches up well with the informaton I have on Karen
Karen Søfrensdater Schive
Birth 1670 in Grindheim, Vest-Agder, Norway
Death 1733 in Grindheim, Vest-Agder, Norway |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 06:24:27
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quote:
That makes me queston if this is really about Karen Sørensdatter Schive.
I read Iver Andersen Lem Soeren as "Lensmann udi Wads Tingsted".
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 31/05/2014 06:25:31 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 07:12:15
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Thanks Einar, would he be the lensman who might be mentioned as is related by John Follesdal in his article?
quote:
and perhaps the names of the lensmann, the assessors, and the sorenskriver.
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Edited by - AntonH on 31/05/2014 07:12:52 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 07:23:57
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Jackie, Here is a reference to Elling Torsteinson husband of one of Karen Schives daughters from Geni.com
Elling Torsteinsen Torsteinson
Birth: estimated between 1603 and 1723
Immediate Family:
Husband of Karen Larsdtr Sveindal V.
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 11:26:58
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Sorry, I did read "Lensmand udi Wads Tingsted", but Iver Andersen Lem Soeren was the one who wrote the probate. I'll try to read more since it is written in the same standard as other probates - this would be a challenge!
And it will take some time.
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Einar |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 11:52:28
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Hmmm.
Elling Torstenson is from "øfre Svindal" upper Svindal.
I'm not very familiar with Norwegian probate records having only looked at a few, but the actual features are somewhat similar to US probate records. Apparently the pants are put on, one leg at a time in Norway also!
In US the first important distinction is if the person who died has a will or not, so either testate (will) or intestate (no will). In the case of a will, the soon-to-be deceased person designates which assets to which person. Intestate means that the assets are divided as per the default in the state's law--typically 1/3 to surviving spouse and 2/3 to be divided equally amongst surviving children.
Letters of Administration, the court appoints a person to handle the matters of the estate or accepts the person appointed to do this in the will. The administrator of estate either conducts an inventory of the assets of the estate or appoints appraisers who give an estimate. Likewise the adminstrator also keeps count of the indebtedness of the deceased and pays the "legitimate" bills presented.
So at the bottom of the first column on page 126 and up through the 2nd column I think you are seeing the "inventory" of assets and value. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 13:10:48
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This is how far I got today:
Iver Andersen Lem Soeren Skriver over Listen, ? Peder Krynersen Sengedal Lensmand udi Wads Tingsted, Torgius Bøgesen Haarstad og Osmund Herbiørnsen ?neringsmand Give Witterlig at Anno 1733 af 26 Sept wære wi paa Øvre Swindal i Grinden Sogn og Wads Tingsted at skylst? og ? samt Skifte og ? efter Sal Karen Sørensdatter ? ? ? ? mand Lars Sørensen og ? Sal ? med ? ? Mand avlede Børn nemlig eldste Søn Sal Søren Larsen ?2dre Barn Jorn Sørensen paa 15 Aar og Randi Sørensdatter ei ? Andre Søn Jonas Larsen paa 15 Aar gl.
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 31/05/2014 13:13:49 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 15:51:07
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Thanks you two. Einar, I am not sure I need a total translation of the Record. I was mostly looking for a overview of what this was, and I think you two have given me that and I greatly appreciate that. Of course if you really want to translate some or all of it I would not object. 
However, when I think about it, what I would really like is if you translated into English the part above in your post. That would be most valuable. |
Edited by - AntonH on 31/05/2014 22:27:11 |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2014 : 23:04:01
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Something like this:
Iver Andersen Lem Soeren writes the list, ? Peder Krynersen Sengedal sheriff for Wads court site, Torgius Bøgesen Haarstad and Osmund Herbiørnsen ?neringsmand make known that in the year 1733 the 26th of September were on Øvre Swindal in Grinden parish and Wads court site to set depth? and ? together with probate and ? after the deceased Karen Sørensdatter ? ? ? ? man Lars Sørensen and ? deceased ? with ? ? man bred children namely the oldest son deceased Søren Larsen ?2nd child Jorn Sørensen 15 years old and Randi Sørensdatter? Second son Jonas Larsen 15 years old ------
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Einar |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2014 : 01:55:35
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Perfect, thanks so much. these two quote:
Torgius Bøgesen Haarstad and Osmund Herbiørnsen
are probably not relatives of Karen Schive so they are who. Local men who are somehow chosen to participate in the Probate? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2014 : 05:08:45
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quote:
Local men who are somehow chosen to participate in the Probate?
- yes. |
Einar |
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Karen Sørensdtr Schive abt 1670
