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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
 Posted - 24/09/2015 : 22:23:17
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Here is another record for the Nils M on the ship Duke of Edinburgh, same year, different month. Name looks like Thornesten or perhaps Thomesten on the original manifest, Of What Nation lists Norway.
Nils M Thomes
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Thomes
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 25
Port of Departure: South Sea Islands
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 11 Mar 1874
Vessel Name: Duke Of Edinburgh
Origin Location: Norway |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2015 : 22:30:54
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Digging further under the ship name of Duke of Edinburgh turns up two other voyages of probably the same person.
Nils Thornton
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils Thornton
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Age: 26
Port of Departure: South Sea Islands
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 21 Oct 1873
Vessel Name: Duke Of Edinburgh
Origin Location: Norway
And in Dec from maybe Hawaii?
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Age: 25
Port of Departure: Lanika
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 24 Dec 1873
Vessel Name: Duke Of Edinburgh
Origin Location: Norway |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2015 : 22:41:49
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Probably the same guy different ship. Now by this date Hans Tonsen was in a common-law relationshp and had two or three children. Also here he is listed as a Fireman.
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Launceston, Tasmania
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 19 Nov 1878
Vessel Name: Tambaroora
Origin Location: Normany
See also http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1878/11/013tam.htm
Name: Nils M Thomerson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Zannceston
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 6 Dec 1878
Vessel Name: Tambaroora
Origin Location: Norway
This would mean he was using the name Hans Tonsen when living in Australia and Nils M Something? when working at sea. Possible but is that likely?
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Edited by - AntonH on 25/09/2015 01:23:03 |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 04:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
Probably the same guy different ship. Now by this date Hans Tonsen was in a common-law relationshp and had two or three children. Also here he is listed as a Fireman.
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Launceston, Tasmania
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 19 Nov 1878
Vessel Name: Tambaroora
Origin Location: Normany
See also http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1878/11/013tam.htm
Name: Nils M Thomerson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Zannceston
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 6 Dec 1878
Vessel Name: Tambaroora
Origin Location: Norway
This would mean he was using the name Hans Tonsen when living in Australia and Nils M Something? when working at sea. Possible but is that likely?
LYNDAL40
I am more of the view that my HANS TONSEN (Nils M Thomesen??) probably absconded from a ship (possibly Duke of Edinburgh) in about July 1874 in Sydney and went further north to Newcastle (about 180kms north of Sydney) to escape capture - Newcastle was the wild west of NSW at that time - but there was a lot of work on ships in that area. Also it was a VERY COMMON THING for most people in Australia (who were of northern England or Irish descent) to call "ALL foreign people with a Germanic or Nordic accent" HANS or HUNS, so he probably just accepted that name.
I note that Trolsianne's (Kristine) second husband is described as Skipper - so perhaps it was an association with him (before their eventual marriage) that allows Hans or NILS to get into ships
The ONLY record in Australia where my HANS TONSEN is referred to as anything OTHER than that name, is on the marriage cert for his oldest (living) son, (that son's birth certificate says his name is NEILS HANS JOSEPHSEN TONSEN) and on the marriage certificate for that son, the father is named as NILS HANS JOSEPH TONSEN - the younger Tonsen also called himself Hans Tonsen - he, the younger Hans, is described in Police Gazette Records as being or Norwegian origins, 5ft 6in tall, stocky build, grey eyes, blonde/brown hair with a tattoo of a naked women on one arm and the letters HT on the other arm
The names as SO SIMILAR - my Hans named his male children (only one of which survived) NEILS HANS JOSEPH Tonsen - THOMAS MARTIN Tonsen; JOSEPH Tonsen and ALBERT Tonsen -
He named his female children (only 3 lived past childhood) JOSEPHINE HANS Tonsen, ELIZABETH ANN Tonsen, CHRISTINA JOSEPHINE Tonsen, SARAH JANE HANDLEY Tonsen, ANNIE ELIZABETH JANE Tonsen, and ELSIE ISABELLA Tonsen |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 07:05:55
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Here are three links where the same ship with the same crewman (who I think became Hans Tonsen) seems to have the same captain on 4 trips from 21 Oct 1873 to 14 Sept 1874 between Sydney and the South Sea Islands and with the same crewman whose first name is NILS, but whose surname is spelled 4 different ways - and the Captains Name in the earliest is Richard J STENNER in one record and Richard James SKINNER in the other three. The spelling in the records is atrocious in the early days of Australia as most people could only write phonetically. Even the ship's name is spelled in two different ways - DUKE OF EDINBROUGH and DUKE OF EDINBURGH at 244 TONS
There is also a DUKE OF EDINBURGH of Sydney which is a bigger ship at 358 TONS and a different captain during the same period, as well as the DUKE OF EDINBURGH of London at 1117 TONS all sailing in New South Wales waters in the same years !!! BUT Nils Thomsen (or whatever his name is) disappears after the September 1874 and does not appear in earlier years, even when the same ship sailed under the same Captain SKINNER (or STENNER) in June or Aug 1873 and when Captain Skinner's term as captain ends, it seems that NILS does not keep going with that ship ?? |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 08:42:17
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The DUKE OF EDINBURGH that Nils M Thorneson (Thorisen Thomson, Thornesent, Thomeson) ? served on was a STEAMER sailing mainly between Sydney and the South Seas Islands. The TAMBAROORA which Nils N Thorneson (Thomeson, Shemesen) served on is also a steamer, but sailed between Australian East Coast Ports between Launceston in Tasmania and Brisbane in Queensland, only - not to "overseas" ports.
My HANS TONSEN's first child was born 30 Jul 1876 - she died in 1877 - the next child (Nils Hans Josephson Tonsen) was born 25 April 1878 - the third child (Thomas Martin was born 3rd April 1880 and died in 1882) - so the 3 trips on board the STEAMER TAMBARORA between Sydney NSW and Launceston, Tasmania in Nov & Dec 1878 - and Brisbane (via Newcastle) to Sydney in May 1879 for NILS ??, could all fit with the timing of the births of the children. In the May 1879 trip his name is shown as (Shemesen, Nils M - Fireman, 29, Norway, Crew)
My Hans Tonsen obtained his Masters Certificate for captaining his own vessels in NSW Coastal waters in MARCH 1880 - as per Notice in Newspapers. - For all of the 6 children born between 1876 and up until 1889 his occupation is shown as MARINER, but on the birth certificates for Sarah Jane Handley Tonsen, born 30 Dec 1889, Annie Elizabeth born 22 Mar 1891, Elsie Isabella born 8 July 1893 and the last child, ALBERT ROY born 21 Jan 1896 - his occupation is shown as LABOURER. The informant for registration of birth details for the last born child was Hans Tonsen, himself, (all other children were registered by Elizabeth) Hans gave his occupation as Labourer, his age as 43 (so would have been born in 1852 unless born between 1 - 20 Jan 1853) and his birth place as Stavanger, Norway |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 08:44:43
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Also, Hans Tonsen died in NOVEMBER 1906 - the formal registration of his death was not recorded until early DEC 1906 - so possible that his relatives in NORWAY did not know of this before the death of Trulsiane Kristine Nilsdatter (his mother ?) in March 1908
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 15:03:38
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Sarah Jane Handley Tonsen was the last of the children born in Sydney in 1889 . During the 1870s and 1880s the economy of NSW was booming, but a severe drought lasting four years from 1890 crippled the economy, resulting in widespread unemployment, poverty and industrial strikes. This is the time that Hans went from being a mariner to a labourer and the family moved from Sydney to the Hunter Valley town of Bungwall Flats (now Bungwahl near Stroud) It was then a Timber town with two large timber mills. The 3rd last and 2nd last children were born in Bungwall Flats. My guess is he was working as a labourer in timber getting. The last child was born in Stockton (North side of Newcastle Harbour in NSW) in 1896.
There is a newspaper article referring to Hans Tonsen as a crewman on board a dredge ship in Newcastle Harbour in 1875 - I can find no record of the NILS M Thomeson?? on any other ships during 1875 or 1876 or 1877. I have records of him (Nils M ???) as a crewman in 1873, 1874, 1878, 1879 and 1880. That year, 1880 is when Hans Tonsen obtained his Masters Certificate and PILOT certificate for NSW Coastal waters - Nils M ??? seems to disappear from records after that time.
There just seems to be TOO MANY COINCIDENCES with dates, names of parents, names of children etc - or am I just being too hopeful. :) :) |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 16:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
There are other things to consider also. Nils Josefsen is listed as a survivor of his mother at her death in 1908 which would not be true if Hans=Nils since Hans died in 1906. Granted there could be several origins for such a situation--long distance of Australia to Norway leading to lack of communication etc.
Neither Hans Tonsen nor Nils Josefsen are found in the online index of sailor's rolls of Stavanger. Likewise several conditions might lead to this situation.
The original information at the beginning given by poster says that Hans Tonsen was born in Stavanger about 1850 to parents Joseph and Christine Tonsen. These facts were taken from Hans Tonsen's death record in 1906 in Australia.
We have not found a person of that name who answers each of the beginning facts. Even though a number of people in Norway were already inheriting surnames, the majority were still practicing the patronymic way of naming, which means it more likely that Hans would have been a Josefsen than a Tonsen in Norway.
Skudenes (and Aakre in Skudenes) is only a short distance to Stavanger so the geography is favorable.
Nils Josefsen from Aakre has only a slight presence in Norwegian records, his baptism, the 1865 census and a mention in the bygdebok and in his mother's estate record. He does not appear in the online index of Norwegian 1875 census (not comprehensive), the 1900 census nor 1910 census, so where is he?
Since some step grandchildren of Trolsianne's are mentioned in her death record, are any of Trolsianne's children mentioned in the estate record of her 2nd husband?
Ole Adnesen Aakre #11:
Kildeinformasjon: Rogaland fylke, Skudenes lensmann, Dødsfallsprotokoll (SAST/A-100444/Gga/L0001), 1884-1899, oppb: Statsarkivet i Stavanger.
Merknader: "Dødsliste"
Permanent sidelenke: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/51946/63/
Mentions 4 grown children at least one of whom is in America. There is a line about the widow but nothing I see about the stepchildren.
The estate record of Nils Josefsen's brother #3 Thomas Martin Josefsen:
Kildeinformasjon: Rogaland fylke, Skudenes lensmann, Dødsfallsprotokoll (SAST/A-100444/Gga/L0003), 1908-1912, oppb: Statsarkivet i Stavanger.
Merknader: "Dødsfalds-Protokol"
Permanent sidelenke: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/51948/26/
Survivors are the wife and deceased soskens d [aughter?]
Is there a Nils M Thomasen in the online index of sailor's rolls of Stavanger ??? possibly - if you could send me a link I can try to look it up myself. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 16:44:17
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Here is the advanced search engine at the Digitalarkivet. On the left hand side you can limit search to Seaman's and Military Rolls by clicking, then input the name. * replaces letters if you are unsure of spelling. A lot of the rolls from Stavanger are included but not all of Norway is included in the index.
http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/sok/person_avansert
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2015 : 21:15:56
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quote:
I can find no record of the NILS M Thomeson?? on any other ships during 1875 or 1876 or 1877. I have records of him (Nils M ???) as a crewman in 1873, 1874, 1878, 1879 and 1880
I suspect that this is a record of him in 1877. Under Last Ship is the word Elmy, so maybe he was on that ship before the Cheviot. I have not yet found a record of that one.
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Registers of Seamen, 1859-1936
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Engagement or Discharge Date: 22 May 1877
Vessel: Cheviot
Record Place: New South Wales, Australia
A question for you. Have you ever found him in the 1891 New South Wales, Australian Census.
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Edited by - AntonH on 25/09/2015 21:26:53 |
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 26/09/2015 : 04:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
quote:
I can find no record of the NILS M Thomeson?? on any other ships during 1875 or 1876 or 1877. I have records of him (Nils M ???) as a crewman in 1873, 1874, 1878, 1879 and 1880
I suspect that this is a record of him in 1877. Under Last Ship is the word Elmy, so maybe he was on that ship before the Cheviot. I have not yet found a record of that one.
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Registers of Seamen, 1859-1936
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Engagement or Discharge Date: 22 May 1877
Vessel: Cheviot
Record Place: New South Wales, Australia
A question for you. Have you ever found him in the 1891 New South Wales, Australian Census.
Yes Lyndal40 - he is in the 1891 Census - at Bungwall Flats - where the child Annie Elizabeth Jane was born in 1891 - the name has been transcribed as Claus Jonsen - but is clearly written in the actual scanned view of the census document as HANS TONSEN - 3 males and 3 females registered at that time (which would be about right with all of the deaths of children by then) - note sure if you can see this through Ancestry.com, but here is the link
http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/1733/32094_223337-00292?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.Ancestry.com.au%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1733%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing " target="_blank"> http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/1733/32094_223337-00292?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.Ancestry.com.au%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1733%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing
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KerrieTonsen
Junior member
Australia
38 Posts |
Posted - 26/09/2015 : 05:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KerrieTonsen
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
quote:
I can find no record of the NILS M Thomeson?? on any other ships during 1875 or 1876 or 1877. I have records of him (Nils M ???) as a crewman in 1873, 1874, 1878, 1879 and 1880
I suspect that this is a record of him in 1877. Under Last Ship is the word Elmy, so maybe he was on that ship before the Cheviot. I have not yet found a record of that one.
Nils M Thorneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Registers of Seamen, 1859-1936
Name: Nils M Thorneson
Engagement or Discharge Date: 22 May 1877
Vessel: Cheviot
Record Place: New South Wales, Australia
A question for you. Have you ever found him in the 1891 New South Wales, Australian Census.
Yes Lyndal40 - he is in the 1891 Census - at Bungwall Flats - where the child Annie Elizabeth Jane was born in 1891 - the name has been transcribed as Claus Jonsen - but is clearly written in the actual scanned view of the census document as HANS TONSEN - 3 males and 3 females registered at that time (which would be about right with all of the deaths of children by then) - note sure if you can see this through Ancestry.com, but here is the link
http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/1733/32094_223337-00292?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.Ancestry.com.au%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1733%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing " target="_blank"> http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/1733/32094_223337-00292?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.Ancestry.com.au%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1733%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing
There is no record of him being on the CHEVIOT in May 1877 in the records that I can access through this site which shows all of the ships recorded in May 1877
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1877/05/7705.htm
This is the crew list as at 03 May 1877
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1877/05/scan.asp?filename=004che.jpg
I did find him in the crew list of the VICTORIA on 13 Aug 1877 (where he is named as Shornesen) - interestingly there is a J Tonson on board as a passenger
[urlhttp://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1877/08/scan.asp?filename=039vic.jpg] |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 26/09/2015 : 17:23:14
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Thank you for the information Kerrie. I see that Ancestry.com has him twice on the Victoria in 1877. The one you listed above and also in Sept. And it also has him listed two more times in 1879. All of these lists use a version of the name Shaneson not Thomsen so we are assuming this is the same man. They same to have the same occupations either AB Seaman or Fireman or Trimer. However looking at the original manifests for the Shaneson names, especially for the one in July 1879, it certainly looks to me as if that name is Thonson.
Nils M Sharneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Sharneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Cooktown Caerus Cleveland Bowen
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 5 Sep 1877
Vessel Name: Victoria
Origin Location: British
And again in Nov on a different ship.
Nils M Sharneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Sharneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Maryborough Via Brisbane
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 2 Nov 1877
Vessel Name: Balclutha
Origin Location: British
Now the origin is back to Norway.
Nils M Shemeson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Shemeson
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Brisbane
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 23 Jun 1879
Vessel Name: Keilawarra
Origin Location: Norway
Nils M Sheneson
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: Nils M Sheneson
Estimated birth year: abt 1850
Age: 29
Port of Departure: Bardhampton
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 14 Jul 1879
Vessel Name: Tambaroora
Origin Location: Norway
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Edited by - AntonH on 26/09/2015 17:44:25 |
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HANS TONSEN
