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Marlys Nelson
Medium member
USA
77 Posts |
 Posted - 28/03/2016 : 21:53:31
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A grandmother, Liv Jonsdatter Tråer , from Sauland parish in Telemark, was engaged to and married a soldier, Ole Gunderson Øyen from Heddal . The pertinent entry was from Aug. 25 and they were married on Sept. 7, 1943.
I have been unable to find his death, but on March 21, 1744 Liv married Tambour Kjetil Bjørnson in that same church! I'm unable to decipher the additional information written in the entry for her first marriage that might provide some clue. Can anyone help with this?
Link: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7952&idx_id=7952&uid=ny&idx_side=-19 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 00:04:08
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Not easy to read.
Liv Jonsdatter was from Tråer in Tuddal, a sub parish in Hjartdal, but married Ole Gundersen Øyen from Heddal in Sauland church, a sub parish in Hjartdal. I think Øyen was a sub farm in Heddal (not sure)
Her 2. marriage with Kittil Bjørnsen was taken place in Tuddal church, his origin is unknown, a Tambour (drummer), both best men were from Kiøn in Tuddal
They were both enlisted soldiers in 2. Smålenske Infantry Regiment, Heddal (Hitterdalske) company, upper Telemark.
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 29/03/2016 00:24:16 |
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Marlys Nelson
Medium member
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 17:18:04
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| Thanks Kåarto...that was about what I gleaned from those entries. I was hoping it might say something about the couple being soskenbarn, or some such. I also wonder what Liv's 'status' was at the second marriage...it wasn't pigen, certainly. I'll have to keep searching for the death of Ole, the first husband. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 18:03:57
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At her 2nd marriage, the word before her name is "quindfolk".
Directly translated it means "female", but used like this in a marriage record it's disparagingly.
I think it can indicate that she was a tramp, ie had illegitimate children..  |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 18:15:41
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Perhaps someone can read these two links.
Engaged in Tuddal church Tambour Kittil Bjørnsen with......."quindfolk" female....
Here is her 2. marriage with Tambour Kittil Bjørnsen, on top left page link
In the second wedding link he is recorded as Tambour Kittil Bjørnsen Traaer with his?..............
Left page more than half way down;
21Marti (March) Festo Annonciatonis in Tuddal was married Tambour Kittil Bjørnsen Traaer with his....."quindfolk"??? link
Kåre
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Edited by - Kåarto on 29/03/2016 18:23:23 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 18:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by jwiborg
At her 2nd marriage, the word before her name is "quindfolk".
Directly translated it means "female", but used like this in a marriage record it's disparagingly.
I think it can indicate that she was a tramp, ie had illegitimate children..
Agree Jan Peter, It looks to me that the priest was grumpy.
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 18:33:31
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The degrading designation "quindfolk" seems to be correct for Liv.
She had a child with Kittil Bjørnsen the year before the marriage.
Halvor, chr 28 Jul 1743.
Could there be two different Liv Jonsdatter Traaer?
I find it strange that a woman first would have a child with one man, then 2 months after the christening marry another man, and then 6 months later again marry the childs father. If that was the case, no wonder he wrote quindfolk. Actually, I would have expected the priest to spell QUINDFOLK with capital letters in bold, and underlined...
Besides; I do not see the word "enke" (widow) in the 2nd marriage record. Being 1744, a divorce is very unlikely. |
Edited by - jwiborg on 29/03/2016 20:03:38 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 19:56:20
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Unfortunately the only "Bygdebok" from Hjartdal not online is the one that is about Tuddal and Traaer/Tråer.
Kåre |
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Marlys Nelson
Medium member
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 20:38:25
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Well I think we have found the 'black sheep' in the family, or at least a 'fallen woman'. Perhaps Ole Gunderson was just being chivalrous to marry her...and then Kittil finally did the right thing...after Ole died? There is more drama to come in this family...lots of material for a soap opera, methinks!
Thanks again for your help...once again we have to accept the bad with the good. |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 29/03/2016 : 21:04:25
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In genealogy there is a "black cheep" in many or most families.
There were three Liv Jonsdatter Tråer:
1. died 1711 (mother to Liv born 1708)
2 born 1708, your ancestor
3 born 1742.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 29/03/2016 21:06:03 |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2016 : 19:45:22
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The engagement on 25 Aug 1743 tok place in Sauland stave church, built year 1200. The church was demolished in 1860. (Click to enlarge)
The more than 800 year old entrance from the Sauland stave church has been saved, and can today be viewed at The Historical Museum in Oslo. (Click to enlarge). Quite some details!
The marriage, christening and the marriage from 1744 took place in Tuddal stave church (1370-1796). I haven't seen a picture of that church. |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2016 : 23:04:20
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So this is NOT based on a marriage in 1943 as the opening posting in this thread says?
I cannot translate -
Source: "Hjartdalsoga : Gard og Ætt Tuddal" Band I, page 661 under section for "Brukarar Tråer gnr. 85.1 Bruksnamnet er og Tråer" <snip>
V) Jon Taraldson Tråer, brukar 1707-41, d 1741, 71 år gml, gIg m Liv Jonsdtr d 1711, 25 år gml, gIIg 1713 m Sissel Olsdtr Rue (Nord-Rue). Born med Liv: 1 Liv f 1708 gIg 1743 m Ola Gjermundson, Heddal, gIIg m Kjetil Bjørnson, Nord-Tjønn, dei flytta til Raundalen. 2 Bergit f 1708 d 1743...." continues with more children and several additional more paragraphs all apparently having to do with Jon Taraldson, the property and his son who became the next user. |
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2016 : 23:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins
So this is NOT based on a marriage in 1943 as the opening posting in this thread says?
I cannot translate -
Source: "Hjartdalsoga : Gard og Ætt Tuddal" Band I, page 661 under section for "Brukarar Tråer gnr. 85.1 Bruksnamnet er og Tråer" <snip>
V) Jon Taraldson Tråer, brukar 1707-41, d 1741, 71 år gml, gIg m Liv Jonsdtr d 1711, 25 år gml, gIIg 1713 m Sissel Olsdtr Rue (Nord-Rue). Born med Liv: 1 Liv f 1708 gIg 1743 m Ola Gjermundson, Heddal, gIIg m Kjetil Bjørnson, Nord-Tjønn, dei flytta til Raundalen. 2 Bergit f 1708 d 1743...." continues with more children and several additional more paragraphs all apparently having to do with Jon Taraldson, the property and his son who became the next user.
Jon Taraldson Tråer, farmer 1707-41, dead 1741, 71 y.o.
Married 1) to Liv Jonsdtr dead 1711, 25 y.o.
Married 2) 1713 to Sissel Olsdtr Rue (Nord-Rue)
Children with Liv:
1) Liv b 1708
Married 1) 1743 to Ola Gjermundson, Heddal
Married 2) to Kjetil Bjørnson, Nord-Tjønn, They moved to Raundalen.
2) Bergit born 1708 dead 1743
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2016 : 23:44:01
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| There appear to be farm locations in Tuddal called Tjønn and Raundalen. I never made a list of the "sub-farm" names in the Hjartdal books so Nord-Tjønn may be such a location. |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2016 : 00:18:13
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Kiøn/Tjønn in Tuddal means pond or a small forest lake and tells where the farm is located.
The master-fiddler Knut Buen owns Tjønn today.
His mother was Margit Tjønn.
In 1999 he was decorated Knight, First Class of the Order of St. Olav.
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jwiborg
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
4961 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2016 : 20:53:03
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I've got some great help in order to translate the christening and the two marriages, and this is what we think it says:
1. Christening of Halvor, 28 Jul 1743 (last part)
Barnets Fader er Kittild Biørnssøn Kiøn, vil gierne ægte hende; men faar bie til hun blant den uconfirmerede ungdom lærer bedre at læse, efterdj hun kan saare lidet udenad og intet efter mine 3 Aars giorde advarsler og formaninger har vildet lære at stave i bog.
The childs father is Kittild Biørnssøn Kiøn, [he] would like to marry her; but [it] should wait until she among the other non-confirmed youth has learned to read better, her learning to read by rote is very poor, and still after my 3 years of warnings and admonitions, she still doesn't want to learn how to spell in the books.
2. Marriage I
This is hard to read, hard to understand the meaning, and thus even harder to translate.
Trolovet Dom 11 p Trinit i Saulands kirke Soldat Ole Gundersen Øyen fra Hitterdal med Pigen Liv Jons Datter Traaer fra Thudal, som hafde ad interims Pas og Recommendations Skrivelse fra Hr Capitain Brendel af 19. Aug 43(?) og Præsten Hr Niels Cochs Attest af 20 Aug. 43, hvor hand iligemaade recommenderet til mig, formedelst den nys andbefalede udmarch(?) i beste maade at hielpe ham, det jeg og ydermere efter foreviisning til dette Steds velerværdige og høylærde Præst Magr(?). Matthias Aagaard, som just nys i Souglands Præstegaard og Kirke same Dag paa sin Retour fra Visitationen paa Tind, fik consentz og tilladelse til. Cautionisterne vare Ole Tostenssøn Houghuus fra …(?) Prgrd. og Gaardmanden Greger(?) Søire(?) fra Hitterdal. Copuleret i Thudal Lørdagen d 7. Sept 1743.
Engaged Dominica 11 post Trinitatis [25 Aug 1743] in Saulands Church Soldier Ole Gundersen Øyen from Hitterdal with girl Liv Jons Datter Traaer from Thudal, that had passport(?) and written recommendation from Mr Captain Brendel of 19 Aug, and Certificate from Priest Mr Niels Coch of 20 Aug. 43, where he likewise recommended for me, because of the newly recommended march(?) in order to best help him, what I after exhibition to this place higly educated Priest Magr(?). Matthias Aagaard, that just in Souglands rectory and Church same day on return from the Visitation at Tind, got consent and approval for. Best men were Ole Tostenssøn Houghuus from …(?) Parish and farmer Greger(?) Søire(?) from Hitterdal. Married in Thudal Saturday 7. Sept 1743.
3. Marriage II
Troloved i Thudals Kirke Tambour Kittild Biørnssøn med det af ham besovne og for Fogden i Høst alt andgivne Qvindfolk Liv Jons Datter Traaer. Cautions Mændene var Kittil Kiøn og Tosten Halvorssøn Kiøn som hafde Hr Obriste Rømers Bevilling. Copuleret d. 21 Martii Festo Annunciationis 44.
Engaged in Thudals Church Tambour Kittild Biørnssøn, with she he has slept with, and for the Bailiff this Autumn already been reported, the "female" Liv Jons Datter Traaer. Best men were Kittil Kiøn and Tosten Halvorssøn Kiøn that had received Colonel Rømers approval/license. Married 21 March Festo Annunciationis 1744.
The sentence structure in old records are very different from modern practise... |
Edited by - jwiborg on 01/04/2016 19:55:11 |
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Two quick marriages.
