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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
 Posted - 28/12/2016 : 01:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Emelia in 1900 census, listed born January 1846 in Norway, immigrated 1864, married 1866
link
I'm curious when she died and if the "1918" discrepancy occurs.
Emelia is on the list but is not identified as "død". A lot of the names have no other notes than just their name. Some say things like "reist til Norge" and "utflyttede" and "bortreist". Some are listed as married to #141 on the list, etc. I'm certain that this was a list of members names. Someone went through to update and put notes by the name if they knew something. There is no other information about Arntine Hansen such as age, marital partner or status, just død.
The database itself is the same set of data between Archives and Ancestry. I think Ancestry encourages people to make corrections and that may be what has happened to the Bethany vs Our Saviour's description. I haven't found the paper description which was microfilmed at the front of the church registers for this, I've only looked at the full length of the list (Julius Torberson is on the very last page of it) and all the baptisms from 1864 & up to 1885. There are some gaps in the marriage records for instance on 11 Sept 1870 a man named Abraham (looks like ) Matland married but there is no name of the pige. There is also a page of marriages that is so light as to be illegible. I found no funerals before 1872 even though the other records appear to go back to about 1859. It's not much and it is what it is for Arntine. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 02:03:46
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Jackie posted as I wrote, reading now.
Back again to say, got it. If someone knew Arntine died, and served as source for updating the 1865 list, wouldn't he/she know if Arntine died married or unmarried? In other words, the implication that she died unmarried seems somewhat trustworthy - not 100%, but likely true.
On the out-migration list posted for Arntine is an Ingeborg Haarstad, which is another name from the 1865 church member list.
All in all the circumstantial evidence is strong that it is the correct Arntine on the 1865 list.
Since Emelie and Arntine almost certainly knew each other, Arntine might have been found as a godparent to one of Emelie's children (if she is surviving) - but Jackie checked baptisms.. |
Edited by - JaneC on 28/12/2016 02:29:43 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 02:57:23
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There are a whole series of situations in the actual listings.
In the vast majority of the early 1864 & + baptism there is huge irregularity how the mother's names have been recorded. The most common is for parents this way: So and So and kone, with no name not even a first name given for the mother, the second most common way is So and So and kone first name. Both of these would require you to know the husband's name, right off the bat.
In the faddernes, there are generally a lot more of the full first and patronymic for some women but when a married couple is faddernes then it is So and So and kone.
Kones get no respect!
I mostly looked for Arntine in the faddernes and I didn't see one named Arntine in the span of baptisms I studied.
I wonder if this church suffered during the 1871 Chicago Fire and maybe that accounts for some of the disorganization in the records.
The name list is not dated except sporadically. On Arntine's page there is a single year date at the top of the page of 1865. There is nothing that I saw that had the date of 1918. The list is certainly not all deaths and the other thing is the actual funeral records have the usual information date died, date of funeral, person's name and sometimes age. |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 03:13:55
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A brief description of the Book found on Ancestry.com
The first 130 pages of the book are minutes of the business meetings of the church called here the Our Savior' English Lutheran Church from founding in 1909 to 1938.
Page 131 has a descriptor on the left page
Our Saviour's Lutheran Church Org. 1909
United Norwegian Lutheran Church 1909 - 1917
Norwegian Church of America ELC 1917 - 60
The American Lutheran Church 1960- )
Berteau and Laramie Avenue
Chicago Il
Ministerial Records 1909 - 1934
The right hand page of page 131 then starts right off with Baptismal Records The book that the baptisms are in starts with page number 29.
First entry is
Name of Parents Name of Child Date of Birth Date of Baptism Sponsors Remarks
William Ghode Lawrence Marie Ghode March 11 1909 Aug 24 1909 The Parents Unreadable
Baptisms end on page 146 year 1934 although the book that the baptisms are entered into has page number 56 on it.
Next comes the Confirmation Register Ancestry page number 147 Book page number 93. Dates 1909 - 910 Ends on page 158 (110) 1934.
Next comes marriage records starting at 1909.ends 1934 Page 167 (136)
Next come burial records 1910 ends 1934 page 172
Then the same set of records from 1935 to end dates are scattered from 1940 to 1961
Skipping ahead, on page 649 starts the Church Record Book for
Ministrialbog for Vor Frelser's Menighed Chicago. It is in this section that the records for the birth of Emile Blomquist child is found.
I did find the Begraved for 1861 to 1867 No name like Arentine Olufine Hansdatter in this section.
Next section covers 1872 to 1911, Begraved starts in 1876 runs to 1890 with no Argentine Olufine Hansdatter found. page 971 |
Edited by - AntonH on 28/12/2016 16:26:29 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 03:26:32
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Thanks to you both for so patiently providing such a detailed description of that church book. I grasp the point about the births - Arntine could be a mother but unnamed. Not finding her certainly doesn't amount to circumstantial evidence that she died early or unmarried and/or childless.
By the same token, seemingly no evidence is found that Arntine truly died in 1918. I doubt she did - I think she died earlier - but so far that is just my thoughts. |
Edited by - JaneC on 28/12/2016 03:35:29 |
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ToreHansen
Starting member
Norway
17 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 07:10:35
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Looks like Anton posted while I was typing.
The list of "1918 deaths" includes Emelia Blomquist who married Henry Olsen in 1866, per Jackie's find. This couple was from Tromso.
1877 birth
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1879 birth
link
These are delayed registrations of birth. Could some deaths in the parish be delayed registration of death with the county? Puzzling.
In the church book in Norway an Emilie Blomkvist and an Henning Olsen, both 18 year, emigrated at the same time as Arentine Olufine. So i think you have found the right one.
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ToreHansen
Starting member
Norway
17 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 07:31:55
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Here is name of all that emigrated at the same time as Arentine Olufine Hansdatter.
Emigrated 5.6.1864
25 Christian Jak. Brinch? 23 år
26 Johan Peter Lahti 21 år
27 Julius Torbersen 21 år
28 Bernt And. Øien 25 år
29 Flora Johanne Knudsen 26 år
30 Karen Gundersdatter 20 år
31 Alida Falch 25 år|
32 Isak Eriksen 40 år
33-36 hustru og barn.
37-38 Johan Johansen og kone 38 og 32 år
39 Arntine Olufine Hansdatter 18 år
40 Serianna Moe 26 år
41-42 Svend Jakobsen og hustru 31 og 32 år
43-45 Maren Akkermann med to barn 46, 21 og 15 år
46 Johannes Larsen Mo 53 år
47 Johan Erik Pedersen 41 år
48 hustru Marie Karoline Johannesdatter 26 år
49 barn Alberta Martina 3 år
50 Kristine ? Johannesdatter 12 år
51 Anne Marie Jonsdatter 16 år
52 Karsten Olaus Helberg 48 år
53 og hustru Johanne Kathrine Berg 45 år
54 Kristian Fredrik Vilhelm Helberg 14 år
55 Oluf Helberg 12 år
56 Hanna Andr. Margr. Helberg 9 år
57 Herikke Kathrine Helberg 7 år
58 Hans Moe 29 år
59 og hustru Ingeborg Forberg 29 år
60 deres barn Marie Serine Moe 3 år
61 Cicilie Torbessen 8 år
62 Henning Olsen 18 år
63 Emilie Blomkvist18 år
Arentine Olufine Hansdatter`s siblings in Norway are written as Gabrielsen. So maybe she is written as Arntine Gabrielsen?
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ToreHansen
Starting member
Norway
17 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 09:15:12
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I found that an niese of Arentine Olufine Hansdatter emigrated from Trondheim, Norway jul 26 1915, and the ticket was paid in America.
Helga Alstad born dec 2 1894, destination Colport, Wisconsin. Ship Via Xania.
Helga is a daughter og Kristian Alstad (1858-1941) and Gabrielle Arentine Gabrielsen (1864-1916). Gabrielle Arentine Gabrielsen is a sister of Arentine Olufine. Helga Alstad married Peter Hansen. Five children; Marie, Louis, Verner, Irene and Steve.
Helga died sep 29 1966 Saint Germain, Vilas, Wisconsin.
I am wondering who paid the ticket?
She had a brother Arthur Alstad born 1892 and it could be him. Lost in Norway.
Or could it be Arentine or some descendents? |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 10:20:17
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Helga emigration
link
1940 - Helga in Indiana
Peter b 1891 Denmark
Helga b 1895 Norway
Marie b 1919 Wisconsin
Louis b 1921 Wisconsin
Verner b 1922 Wisconsin
Irene b 1924 Illinois
Steve b 1935 Indiana
link
On link, index to obit, Helga's daughter Irene
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Index to Verner obit
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Edited by - JaneC on 28/12/2016 17:12:41 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 11:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by ToreHansen
I found that an niese of Arentine Olufine Hansdatter emigrated from Trondheim, Norway jul 26 1915, and the ticket was paid in America.
Helga Alstad born dec 2 1894, destination Colport, Wisconsin. Ship Via Xania.
Helga is a daughter og Kristian Alstad (1858-1941) and Gabrielle Arentine Gabrielsen (1864-1916). Gabrielle Arentine Gabrielsen is a sister of Arentine Olufine. Helga Alstad married Peter Hansen. Five children; Marie, Louis, Verner, Irene and Steve.
Helga died sep 29 1966 Saint Germain, Vilas, Wisconsin.
I am wondering who paid the ticket?
She had a brother Arthur Alstad born 1892 and it could be him. Lost in Norway.
Or could it be Arentine or some descendents?
This Arthur Kristian Alstad?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KXTX-CWK
This one:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HD-JQ8T
father is Christ Alsted mother has a strange name Intemia but Gabrielson.
Here with family in 1930:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XC9Z-XLC |
Edited by - jkmarler on 28/12/2016 11:13:59 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 11:21:54
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A Find-a-Grave memorial for Arthur in Astoria, Oregon
link |
Edited by - JaneC on 28/12/2016 11:27:05 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 11:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
A Find-a-Grave memorial for Arthur in Astoria, Oregon
link
How amazing and sweet that Arntine is remembered in so many names. |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 11:48:33
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Yes. It is a pretty name.
Ruth Arntena Alstad gets married.
link
Gerda Rosinda Alstad gets married.
link
1865 Hans Gabrielsen family in Norway
link
About GABRIELSEN - good idea, but probably everyone searched for Arentine with Gabrielsen name. |
Edited by - JaneC on 28/12/2016 12:19:19 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 13:00:57
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Here in 1870 as Nicholson:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M67F-W4N
family directly above Thomas and Olufine has a Nils O. Nilson, a Margaret Nilson, Carl Nilson, and a Caroline Nilson.
Here is an Olufine Mickelson about the right age in 1880:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXNB-P3Q
She is in the death / funerals of Our Saviour's as having died on 17 Jan 1884, her age is a bit of a muddle though could be 34, 54, 64, 84
Her husband marries again to Hjertine Gulbranson on 28 July 1885
Olufine's children:
Mathilde Jendine parents Thos. Mikkelson & kone b 16 Sept 1870
bap 25 Sept 1870 faddernes: Nils O Nilsen, C.J. Nilsen, Marta Mikkelsen and Mad. Nilsen
Tobnine Olufine b. 27 Aug bap 19 Sept
parents Thom. Mikkelsen and kone
faddernes: Marta Mikkelsen, Bertine Tollefson, N. Adman, M. Borge, Jacob Nilsen
Marie Johndine b 14 Dec 1873 bap 1 Jan 1874
parents: Thomas Mikkelsen and kone
faddernes: Marta Mikkelsen, Margrete Nilsen, N.O. Nilsen, Carel Nilsen, Johan Vallefam ?
George Martin b. 28 July 1878 bap 25 Aug 1878
parents: Thomas Mikkelson and kone Olufine Dorothea
faddernes: Martha Mikkelson, Caroline Nilsen, Lina Thorson, Ed. Jacobsen
Thomas Odin b 23 Oct 1879 bap 16 Nov 1879
parents: Thomas Mikkelson and Olufine Dorothea
faddernes: father, Carl Johan Nilsen, Caroline Nilsen
Being an Olufine Dorothea would tend to eliminate her. Heavy emphasis on Nilsen in the faddernes, I'd expect that her name may have been Nilsen |
Edited by - jkmarler on 28/12/2016 14:58:06 |
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Arentine Olufine Hansdatter
