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kmattson
Starting member
USA
11 Posts |
 Posted - 30/11/2020 : 16:32:19
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A number of resources list a Sigrid Haftoresdatter (born in Iceland around 1194, died in Norway around 1275) and Holte Jonsson (born around 1180, died in Norway around 1240). My question has to do with whether one of their two sons, a Bjørn Holtesson (sometimes listed as Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson) ever had children. And if so, what were their names? I ask because there appears to be a lot of confusion in the online records between a Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson and a Bjørn Ulvhendinson Kamp (from the same area in the same century but with different birth/death dates: 1140-1185). Apparently, Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson died in a shipwreck near the Faroe Islands in 1240, when he was 60 years old. And I believe he was married to a Ragnhild Audensdatter (1220-1290). Anyway, if anyone could help answer the key question--whether Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson and Ragnhild Audensdatter were actually a couple with children, and a lead to those children's names (if possible), I would be grateful. I'm at a crossroads in my family tree. If it turns out that Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson never had children, then the information on my family tree that connects my Norwegian-American family back to Sigrid Haftoresdatter and Holte Jonsson is either wrong or terribly unreliable. On the other hand, if I can get answers that definitely link my family to this couple, then I could add important evidence to the family tree.
Here are some links to help anyone get started and begin to grapple with the confusion:
https://jrho.no/getperson.php?personID=I10717&tree=jrh1
https://jrho.no/getperson.php?personID=I10842&tree=jrh1
https://jrho.no/getperson.php?personID=I10843&tree=jrh1
This is where it gets really confusing:
https://www.myheritage.com/names/bj%C3%B8rn_ulvhendinson%20kamp
And this last online source lists various variations on Amund Björnsson Kamp as a possible descendant of Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson (on my family tree it's Agmund Bjornsson), but I have trouble making sense of it all:
https://www.myheritage.com/names/amund_bj%C3%B6rnsson%20kamp
And to further complicate things, someone posted a note to the Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson entry (family tree) that Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson's alternate name was Tord Assurson. That person added a link to this page, but I'm not clear how that information proves that claim:
http://slekt.ostby.priv.no/getperson.php?personID=I1152&tree=ostbyslekt
The same person claimed that Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson's mother, Sigrid Haftoresdatter, had the alternate name of Gunnhild Gunnarsdatter, adding this link: http://slekt.ostby.priv.no/getperson.php?personID=I1154&tree=ostbyslekt
Likewise, I'm not clear on how the above resources supports that claim.
Apologies for all of the confusing examples, but that's why I need help making sense of it all. |
K. Mattson |
Edited by - kmattson on 30/11/2020 16:55:41 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 17:21:14
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Using the Geni.com profile, I used the Action - Descendants link to get to Riksråd Gaute Toraldessøn Kane. If you look at his profile, you see some discussion of sources.
Geni.com
You can see that for this profile a source is given. It is a discussion on Slekts Forum Slekt og Data. That refers to this article.
Hele hefte 4 av bind 38 av Norsk Slektshistorisk Tidsskrift er viet Per Reidar Christiansens artikkel "De gamle ættene fra Månstad og Nes i Jemtland". |
Edited by - AntonH on 30/11/2020 17:34:32 |
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kmattson
Starting member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 18:51:48
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Thank you, lyndal40. Actually, your question is my question. I'm hoping that someone knows of a source somewhere that is authoritative on the progeny of Sigrid Haftoresdatter and Holte Jonsson, as opposed to the links I've shared, which lean heavily towards hearsay.
I've also tried your suggestion in the follow-up. As you've indicated, it's not reliable (https://www.geni.com/people/Sigrid-%C3%86nes/6000000032759096364), but I'm wondering where those who complete these unreliable pages are getting their information.
As context for my questions, this all resulted from a familysearch.org family tree that I'm maintaining, which includes my Great-Grandma Marie Halvorson (see this entry on Norway Heritage: http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4954). My part of the tree is credible, but once it was linked up to others' work and went way back, I started to run into the credibility issues you noted. I'm hoping that someone in the Nes, Akershus area will have access to some actual historical documents that will give credibility one way or the other (either prove or disprove a family connection to Sigrid Haftoresdatter), but I don't know if I'll be able to find something like that. I'm hopeful, but I have serious doubts about finding answers. |
K. Mattson |
Edited by - kmattson on 30/11/2020 19:17:42 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 19:24:20
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A profile is only as reliable as its sources. That applies to Geni.com as well. I went to Genei.com because it tends to be a site that uses sources more than any other that I have used. Your link lead to Sigrid Haftoresdatter Ænes but again no sources. That leaves me with a lot of doubt that anything stated there is real.
Geni does use Curators and allows input into a profile from many people. In that respect it tends to be somewhat more reliable than a site run by one individual.
For the link I provided, I would put more trust in that profile because the Manager has tried to research the validity of the data he put into the profile.
But you probably realize that information from those times is hard to come by.
One thing that did set off alarm bells in one of the links you provide was that the lady had three husbands and had children that are listed as being born all over Norway. At least three fylke. That seems very unlikely to me to be accurate.
Sigrid Haftoresdatter
Kvinne 1194 - 1275 (Alder 81)
Person ID: I10717 | Sist endret: 7 Jun 2017
Har 2 aner og fler enn 100 etterkommere i dette slektstreet.
Chrlden born in Troms, Akershus and Telemark and Romerike (Romerike is a district not a fylke} |
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kmattson
Starting member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 19:34:31
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| Thanks again, lyndal40. I had those same alarm bells go off when I saw those many partnerships and children. The other question is whether Sigrid Haftoresdatter is even a real person to begin with. If she was born in Iceland and died in the area of Nes, Akershus (old Romerike), Norway, then perhaps that would give greater credence to the relationship with Holte Jonsson, since his family is at least said to be from that vicinity. But then again, is Holte Jonsson even a real person? These are all the questions that online resources haven't been able to answer for me. I greatly appreciate your advice on my efforts to learn more! |
K. Mattson |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 20:53:24
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One approach you can use is to trace the people forward and see where you might find some sources listed for the profile. In this case it is not so far.
Holte Jonsson abot 1180
Ulvhedin Holteson Kamp about 1200
Bjørn Ulvhedinsen Kamp
Norwegian: Bjørn Ulvhedinsen Kamp, på Holter
Gender: Male
Birth: 1250
Holter, Nes, Akershus, Norway
Death: 1290 (39-40)
Holter, Nes, Akershus, Norge
Bjørn Geni
He is discussed a little in thread on Arkivverket. That is a quality Norwegian site for people asking questions about their ancestors etc. The thread dates to 2000 but at least no one dismissed the existence of Bjørn.
It is in Norwegian but you can use Google translate to get the gist of the discussion.
Thread
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Edited by - AntonH on 30/11/2020 20:59:53 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 21:12:57
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It looks like the sources that are used for this family in Norway are the Nes bygdebøker and Romerike Ættehistorielags Årbøker.
Kolstad, Gunhild: Nes bygdebok, utgitt 1990.
A genealogy and a history of the people and their farms in Nes and Helgøy, Hedmark County, Norway.
Probably four volumes.
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Edited by - AntonH on 30/11/2020 21:13:35 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 21:26:47
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In the thread from Digitalarkivet, one of the posters writes this.
Hei,Holtabjørn Kamp er også nevnt av Kirkeby i bygdeboka for Nannestad (IV s. 291) hvor han tar for seg Steinarætta i Holter og forteller at: ... Steinar på Skånøre i Vestfold var gm datter til Bjørn (Holtabjørn) Kamp. Han sier videre at han (Bjørn) bodde på Holter i Nes og var gm Ragnhild Audunsdotter som ble gravlagt på Hovedøy kloster i 1290...Det var iallfall noe om Bjørn :-)))Hilsen Gro
English version
"Hi, Holtabjørn Kamp is also mentioned by Kirkeby in the village book for Nannestad (IV p. 291) where he discusses Steinarætta in Holter and says that: ... Steinar on Skånøre in Vestfold was married to a daughter of Bjørn (Holtabjørn) Kamp. He goes on to say that he (Bjørn) lived at Holter in Nes and was married to Ragnhild Audunsdotter who was buried at Hovedøy monastery in 1290 ... At least there is something about Bjørn :-))) Regards Gro"
Steinar Geni
Nannestad Bygdebøker
Contents: vol. 1. Gardshistorie for Nannestad sokn -- vol. 2. Gardshistorie for Holter sokn -- vol. 3. Gardshistorie for Bjørke sokn -- vol. 4 . Bygdehistorie.
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Edited by - AntonH on 30/11/2020 21:28:03 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 21:42:48
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Poking at the Norwegian side of your question, I am coming to the conclusion that the good sources end about Bjørn Ulvhedinsen Kamp. Of course Bjørn had a father who was likely name Ulvhed and could have been Ulvhed Holteson Kamp but I have not seen any sources for that.
I think you run out of certainty about 1200 with the Norwegian side and anything beyond that is conjecture.
If you obtain access to the bygdebøker listed above you could likely confirm that conjecture on my part. |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 21:55:08
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Going back to your original post and its question.
quote:
1194, died in Norway around 1275) and Holte Jonsson (born around 1180, died in Norway around 1240). My question has to do with whether one of their two sons, a Bjørn Holtesson (sometimes listed as Bjørn "Kamp" Holtesson) ever had children. And if so, what were their names?
According to the Geni.com profile the answer is yes and maybe nine or more.
I think if you went to the bygdebøkene listed above you could likely answer that question.
Your real question is "who was the father and mother of Bjørn" I think that there is probably no reliable answer to that.
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Edited by - AntonH on 30/11/2020 21:58:02 |
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kmattson
Starting member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2020 : 22:06:41
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Wonderful, lyndal40! I'm very grateful for your help. And to see that some of these names at least bear out in certain volumes motivates me to keep searching. :-)
All the best to you! |
K. Mattson |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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kmattson
Starting member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2020 : 16:54:41
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| Thanks for the resource, jkmarler. |
K. Mattson |
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Inquiry about possible distant Norwegian ancestor
