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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
 Posted - 30/04/2021 : 08:21:04
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Odds & Ends from North Dakota public death index:
GILBERTSON, MARY 03/23/1942 McKenzie FEMALE 91 Years 02/15/1851 North Dakota McKenzie
KNUTSON, SEVERT 02/27/1905 Nelson MALE 31 Years 99/99/9999 North Dakota Nelson
KNUTSON, SEVER C 11/22/1924 Griggs MALE 59 Years 02/25/1865 North Dakota Griggs
KNUTSON, SEVERT 12/28/1939 Cass MALE 63 Years 09/17/1876 North Dakota Cass |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2021 : 16:44:49
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If Maren did indeed take up the world's oldest profession as her soon to be ex claimed, changed her name, manipulated her biographical data how would we be able to tell it was her in any given census?
The occupation of any given person recorded in the census might help to determine.
The 1885 Dakota Territorial census has an interesting anecdotal history in this regard. One of the founders of the Red River Valley Genealogical Society, the late Shirley Simmons, claimed that she had seen the original schedules of the 1885 census. There was one census taker in the western counties who made no bones about what he really thought about the individuals who he was recording, calling one's occupation as "serpent tongued b*tch" and the like. Shirley said that his work lead to the census having to be re-taken & cleaned up. So there is that.
Otherwise, you don't really see many persons in Dakota in 1885 occupied as prostitute or "soiled dove" or any other euphemism, of which there are numerous in the Victorian American age.
Here is the single prostitute of Norwegian origin of 7 listed with that occupation in the 1885 census living in Traill county with her "roomie":
14-066-25 Knudson, A. 32 Head Prostitute Norway Traill
14-066-26 Sherman, Nellie 35 Boarder Prostitute NY Traill
There were 15 women whose occupation was "sport" living all but one in Fargo; 5 whose occupation was "sporting woman" (and one man whose occupation was "sporting man" but of course with a different connotation): 2 occupied as woman of the town.
The occupation is essentially very fluid. In an article published in the Grand Forks Herald on Tuesday 11 Sept 1883 titled "Social Evil" is a review of a lecture by Rev T.F. Allen's on the evil of prostitution as it appeared in Grand Forks. Apparently the Rev surveyed the landscape in Grand Forks and found 7 houses of public prostitution with 29 "inmates", five of the madams were named and of those five only one was still operating two years later, her name was Lou Livingston or Livingstone. She is noticed many times in the paper, mostly paying her fines for keeping a house of ill fame, getting into fights with other madams and settling disputes between her girls and their patrons. The last mention of her as a currently living person was about 1895. She apparently left Grand Forks for better pickings in East Grand Forks, Minn. The "resort" she had in EGF burned to the ground in 1908, then owned by another madam.
In the 1885 census Lou Livingston is recorded as conducting a millinery business:
09A-041-01 Livingston, Lou 32 Mother Millinery Canada Grand Forks City Grand Forks
09A-041-02 Hanson, Carrie 27 Servant Dressmaker KS Grand Forks City Grand Forks
09A-041-03 Roderick, Minnie 26 Boarder Dressmaker Canada Grand Forks City Grand Forks
09A-041-04 Devere, Annie 19 Boarder Dressmaker Canada Grand Forks City Grand Forks
09A-041-05 Atchson, Myrtle 2 Son Dakota Grand Forks City Grand Forks |
Edited by - jkmarler on 01/05/2021 16:22:17 |
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loyane
Junior member
Germany
73 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2021 : 22:09:40
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Dear Jackie and other Listers!
I am amazed with the great efforts that you, Jackie, are putting in trying to locate Mary Gilbertson and her family!
Mary Gilbertson who died in McKenzie Co., ND Mar. 23, 1942 sounds like a very interesting «candidate» for «our» Mary. Maybe an obituary can be found for her?
But when my eyes opened quite wide, is when you talk about the prostitutes in Traill Co., ND in 1885:
* A. KNUDSON 32 Nor Nor Nor prostitute
* Nellie SHERMAN 35 NY NY NY boarder prostitute
* Annie KNUDSON 14 MN Nor Nor daughter
* Mary KNUDSON 10 MN Nor Nor daughter
* Henry KNUDSON 8 MN Nor Nor son
* Ida ANDERSON 23 MN Nor Nor boarder prostitute
Then comparing with Mary Gilbertson's children:
* Johanna Marie, born Goodhue Co., Minn. Sep. 29, 1869
* Olina, born Otter tail Co., MN June 2, 1872
* Marie, born Otter tail Co., MN July 8, 1873
* Julie, born Otter tail Co., MN Nov. 2, 1874
* Christian, born Otter tail Co., MN Mar. 12, 1876
I suspect you have indeed found the «right» family in 1885:
* Johanna Marie must be Anna
* Marie must be Mary
* Christian must be Henry
Their ages, as well as Mary Gilbertson herself, are all given two years short, for whatever reason...!
Sivert Knudson is not there with them, and neither are the girls Olina and Julia...
So, where in Traill Co, ND did they live? - Enumeration District 14?
On the same page there is a Civil War veteran Alvin Arnold, and he lived in PORTLAND, TRAILL Co., ND.
What do you think, Jackie, have we found Mary Gilbertson's «nest» in 1885?
Thanks again for brilliant assistance! Now, what happened to the family after 1885?
Very sincerely yours, |
Lars E. Oyane |
Edited by - loyane on 02/05/2021 00:34:18 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2021 : 05:12:06
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| There is a Syver Knudson in Portland. I can't say when he got there but he is age 29 when he marries in 1889 to a woman named Guri A Bergene. The church is Aurdal and one of the witnesses to the wedding is Tollef Flaten who is down the street from A Knudson in 1885. |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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loyane
Junior member
Germany
73 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2021 : 19:48:08
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Dear Jackie and other Listers!
Thank you very much, Jackie, for more interesting and challenging messages!
I am convinced we are onto something with these Sever Knutsons that you have found in Hillsboro, ND. The divorce case mentions Hillsboro along with Portland and Fargo as places where Mary «exercised» her profession. Maybe Sever owned appartments in several places, or he moved around?
Those old newspapers are indeed great sources of information. Who knows, maybe even «Madame» KNUDSON shows up there as well?
I have checked the Traill Co., ND cemetery book put out by the Red River Valley genealogical society, but there are no «matching» Gilbertsons or Knutsons in or around Portland, ND!
I have been curious about that groom from Portland from 1889 and have identified him as being:
Syver Knutson RUSE, born in Etnedal (Bruflat), Valdres, Norway Sep. 29, 1859. He emigrated in 1880 and must have lived at Portland, ND in the early 1880s... With his wife Guri he moved to a farm in Field township, Nelson Co., ND where he died July 16, 1939. Could it be that an obituary for him can be found?
What I imagine may have happened back in 1881, is as follows: Mary had to leave her farm in MN and perhaps moved with her children to Fargo, ND to find work. There she got involved with prostitution. And Syver maybe also went there about the same time. Somehow the two of them became acquainted, and they moved to Portland, ND where there lived «tons» of emigrants from Aurdal and Etnedal! That's where Guri Bergene came from as well!
And don't forget that Peter Gilbertson also came from the same area in Norway...! Maybe he had friends in Portland who told him how things were going... How else would he learn about that while in prison in Stillwater?
Syver Ruse seems to have «adopted» the Ruse name after he left Portland - maybe he had a good reason to do that?
By the way, if we could only manage to find one of those Gilbertson/Knudson children, that might lead us to the mother!
Thanks again for your great interest and assistance in this matter!
Very sincerely yours, |
Lars E. Oyane |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2021 : 01:59:03
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Sever Knudson Ruse proved up his homestead in Nelson in 1890 which means he had to stay on his place for 5 years, so he should be in the 1885 Dakota Territorial census and he is:
36-006-34 Rouse, Sevor C. 28 Single Farmer Norway Nelson
And he became an actual US citizen:
Ruse Syver K Norway 2nd June 2, 1888 Nelson D-8 061
Not sure where and when he got his "first" papers, though its likely that would have been about 5 years before the 2nd papers.
Well, it looks like Syver got his 1st papers in Otter Tail county, Minnesota:
Naturalization Record
First Name: SYVER (SYVOR)
Last Name: RUSE
Location: OTTER TAIL
County: OTTER TAIL
State: MINNESOTA
Code: 3
Reel: 1
Volume: B
Page: 240
Or not here is a much older Syver O Ruse who also lived and died in Otter Tail Co in FAG:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/55627238/syver-olson-ruse
And his wife Marit's FAG with a lot of detail:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155599664/marit-ruse
In 1900 census Siver O Ruse is listed as Na for Naturalized.
The only way to be somewhat certain which the naturalization record refers would be to get a copy.
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Edited by - jkmarler on 02/05/2021 14:15:04 |
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loyane
Junior member
Germany
73 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2021 : 13:11:03
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Dear Jackie and other Listers!
Thank you so much for new interesting items!
It is great that you have found Syver Knutson Ruse in 1885 in Nelson Co., ND. Now on one side that would explain why he is not enumerated with «Madame Knudson» in the Portland census, wouldn't it? On the other side we have those listings from the Hillsboro newspapers from 1887/1888?
Were there TWO different Sever Knutsons in the area at the same time?
I believe it might be worthwhle checking out the Register of Deeds in Traill Co., ND from the 1880's, since Sever Knudson must show up as house or land owner!?
Thanks again for wonderful assistance!
Very sincerely yours, |
Lars E. Oyane |
Edited by - loyane on 02/05/2021 14:56:47 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2021 : 14:11:51
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Yes the land records for Sever Knudson in Traill might be of interest.
Of the 7 women designated as prostitutes in the 1885 Dakota Territorial census, their average age was 30.
Here is a plat map from 1900 for Traill:
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4173t.la000594/?r=0.089,0.375,0.203,0.125,0
Ole Olson Rohn obit in Minneapolis Tidende page 6 col 1:
https://newspapers.mnhs.org/jsp/PsImageViewer.jsp?doc_id=c761e651-9707-4e1e-a180-9a5605b1aa2e%2Fmnhi0031%2F1DFYCE5B%2F17081601
And Ole Olson Rohn bigger obit in Fergus Falls Ugeblad page 1 col 2:
https://newspapers.mnhs.org/jsp/PsImageViewer.jsp?doc_id=7e8bc5b0-560c-4920-8657-5a2e78c7c54d%2Fmnhi0031%2F1DFIOB5B%2F17080801
In his will (at Ancestry) Ole Olson Rohn distributes his wealth to daughter Oliana Steen, daughter Helen Tollefson, son Haagen Rohn, and grand son Chris Stoa (who was the son of a deceased daughter). He makes no distinction if there ever was one between the children.
Here are the Severs in Traill county in 1885 (there is one in Portland as Solberg):
Broe, Sever L. 29 Father Farmer IA 13-012-06 Traill
Christianson, Sever 11 Son Norway 13-085-18 Traill
Erickson, Sever 30 Lodger Farmer Norway 14-063-33 Traill
Severson, Sever 33 Lodger Servant Norway 14-063-27 Traill
Severson, Sever 23 Servant Farm laborer Norway 13-029-33 Traill
Severtson, Sever 15 Servant Servant Norway 14-033-46 Traill
Sletten, Sever E. 30 Lodger Laborer Norway 14-063-26 Traill
Solberg, Sever 37 Boarder Carpenter Norway Portland 14-048-36 Traill
And the Severts in Traill:
Brovold, Severt 5 Son Norway 14-022-19 Traill
Christianson, Severt 18 Boarder RR worker Norway 13-012-50 Traill
Fornes, Severt O. 45 Husband Farmer Norway 13-021-10 Traill
Gilbertson, Severt 20 Hired man Farm laborer Norway Hillsboro 13-069-38 Traill
Hagelie, Severt 29 Father Farmer IA 13-006-02 Traill
Laatvedt, Severt O. 46 Father Farmer Norway 13-008-33 Traill
Lerum, Severt 14 Son Farm laborer IA 13-018-38 Traill
Nelson, Severt 3 Son Dakota 13-020-44 Traill
Olson, Severt F. 28 Head Farmer Norway 14-064-20 Traill
Solberg, Severt 7 Son Norway 13-027-02 Traill
Sorenson, Severt 42 Father Blacksmith Norway 13-012-18 Traill
Thompson, Severt 44 Husband Farmer Norway 13-008-08 Traill
Ulset, Severt 30 Servant Farm laborer Norway 13-004-40 Trail
And Syverts same way:
Anderson, Syvert 60 Husband Farm laborer Norway 14-042-26 Traill
Anderson, Syvert (Mrs.) 62 Wife Norway 14-042-27 Traill
Bakken, Syvert 17 Son IA 14-029-48 Traill
Foss, Syvert 24 Boarder Farmer Norway 14-044-44 Traill
Gorden, Syvert B. 12 Son WI 14-019-18 Traill
Jacobson, Syvert 13 Servant Servant Norway Hatton 14-039-34 Traill
Koldingnes, Syvert 28 Husband Farmer Norway 14-038-24 Traill
Koldingnes, Syvert (Mrs.) 34 Wife Norway 14-038-25 Traill
Koldingnes, Syvert 2 Son Dakota 14-038-26 Traill
Koldingnes, Syvert 8 Son IA 14-038-30 Traill
Larson, Syvert 38 Head Farmer Norway 13-048-28 Traill
Mostrud, Syvert 10 Son IA 14-042-19 Traill
Rue, Syvert S. 19 Boarder Farm laborer Norway 14-031-39 Traill
Solberg, Syvert 38 Boarder Norway 14-035-36 Traill
Sundby, Syvert 3 Son Dakota 13-040-44 Traill
And Sivert
Andersen, Sivert 18 Servant Farm laborer Norway 14-027-42 Traill
Sivertsen, Sivert 27 Boarder Harnessmaker WI Mayville 14-008-07 Traill
And Syver:
Aas, Syver C. 4/12 Feb Son MN 13-048-50 Traill
Anderson, Syver 41 Head Farmer Norway 14-049-32 Traill
Bertithrud, Syver G. 20 Servant Farm laborer Norway 14-056-05 Traill
Hoff, Syver B. 23 Servant Farm laborer Norway 14-067-40 Traill
Lindelien, Syver O. 18 Brother Bartender Norway 14-045-47 Traill
Olson, Syver 23 Boarder RR Norway Portland 14-047-43 Traill
Pederson, Syver 24 Servant Farm laborer Norway 14-057-38 Traill
Rue,Syver 61 Head Farmer Norway 14-051-17 Traill
Vrei, Syver 28 Husband Saloonkeeper Norway Hatton 14-039-24 Traill
Vrei, Syver (Mrs.) 27 Wife Norway Hatton 14-039-25 Traill |
Edited by - jkmarler on 02/05/2021 17:43:17 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2021 : 12:55:31
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And there is a Sivert Knutson in Cass County in the era:
Cass County District Court NO INFORMATION Sivert Knudson NO INFORMATION 1880 - 1880 Indictment 2-294 Obtaining money under false pretenses
And here he is in jail in 1880 census as Sebert Knudson:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCV3-27R
And if the children changed their surname to Knudson, this death / notice obituary might be worth looking at, because of the birthdate:
Knudson Carl 1876 Fargo ND March-19-1897 1 FF & DR
Knudson Carl 1876 Fargo ND March-20-1897 5 FF & DR col. 2
Knudson Carl 1876 Fargo ND March-23-1897 1 FF & DR col. 4
And Carl Knudson also had an estate in Cass county:
Knudson, Carl H. 40-806 Died Mar. 19, 1897 Fargo, ND
A story about Carl Herbert Knudson was also published in the Record:
Knudson Carl Herbert 1876 1897 Record. Vol. 2, no. 10 (April 1897) F631.R43 [17] |
Edited by - jkmarler on 04/05/2021 16:46:33 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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loyane
Junior member
Germany
73 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2021 : 00:06:07
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Dear Jackie and other Listers!
I am indeed amazed with the efforts that you, ackie, are putting in to locate this family, and I am so happy to see that prorgress is being made, little by little...
Now, that Sivert Knutson who committed fraud and that you found in the Fargo, ND prison, has been in my eyes before... And I did find a few things a couple of years ago:
He was found guilty of obtaining money under false pretense, and sentenced to prison in Detroit (Lakes) on June 23, 1880. He was from Ransom County. Nothing in the case file lists the name of his wife.
So he had been living in Ransom Co., ND, but that was prior to 1880 Could it be he shows up in homesteading papers? Another very relevant question would be:
* How long did he stay in prison for what he did? The prison authorities should have that kind of information available... Maybe they even have a birthdate for him and other interesting facts...?
Maybe he got out just in time for «taking care of» poor Mary and her five kids when she had to leave the farm in 1881?
I received today a biography for Syver Knutson Ruse of Nelson Co., ND, and it reads he homesteaded there as early as in 1882, so I guess that «eliminates» him as an alternative...
Thanks again for your great assistance in this matter!
Very sincerely yours, |
Lars E. Oyane |
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Mary Urness Gilbertson (1851) - Otter tail Co., MN
