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Ruben
Starting member
Belgium
9 Posts |
 Posted - 08/05/2025 : 22:40:16
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Thanks for your expertise, guys!
Anton Julius Hansen definitely seems to have been a 'kontorist' at the baptism of Hans Pet(t)er Antonsen (26/09/1865).
When Hans married in 1892, the city administration made some inquiries with the Swedish and Norwegian Consulate in Antwerp. Within the marriage papers, a short letter of the pastor of Ullensaker parish can be found, in which the word 'kontorist' can be clearly read.
Is there a way to track down, with some certainty, the death/burial certificate of Anton Julius Hansen? Perhaps this gives more information about his date of birth?
In 1892, Belgian immigration police registered Anton Julius as the deceased father of Hans. I am not sure, however, how accurate this information is. (Perhaps Hans himself didn't even know or had no longer contact with his father.) |
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
897 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2025 : 12:14:54
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A puzzling complication; at Hans Petter's confirmation in 1880, his father is listed as tjenestedreng (servant/servant boy) Anton Olsen Grøntvet: Query at forum.
The rightmost column states that Hans Peter had good knowledge and very good behaviour. (The same as the boy above.) |
Edited by - ToreL on 09/05/2025 13:18:33 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
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Ruben
Starting member
Belgium
9 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2025 : 18:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ToreL
A puzzling complication; at Hans Petter's confirmation in 1880, his father is listed as tjenestedreng (servant/servant boy) Anton Olsen Grøntvet: Query at forum.
The rightmost column states that Hans Peter had good knowledge and very good behaviour. (The same as the boy above.)
Curiouser and curiouser!
As my knowledge of the Norwegian language and Norwegian topography is unfortunately very limited, it is difficult to help solve this mystery. But i am cheering you on! (Once again, many thanks for the help, ToreL, jkmarler and AntonH!) :-)
1. Marriage document
Sorry, if this doesn't help, but what about the document in the marriage papers of son Hans Peter Antonsen, I referred to earlier?
It is written on 26/02/1891 by Erling Grønland, apparently not only the priest of Ullensaker at the time, but also a sculptor. In the document he seems to refer to both the baptism of Hans Peter (in which kontorist Anton Julius Hansen is mentioned as the father), as the konfirmation (in which tjenestedreng Anton Olsen Grøntvet is mentioned as the father).
Do I understand correctly – the letter is difficult to translate for me – that Erling Grønland does not mention anything peculiar and simply declares Anton Julius Hansen to be the father? If so, he seems to have deliberately ignored Anton Olsen? (He must also have consulted the konfirmation register for writing his letter.)
He only became priest of Ullensaker in 1886, so he was not present at either the baptism or the konfirmation. On the other hand, the konfirmation only happened about 11 years before the letter was written, so he might still have known who the real father was?
2. A very, very, very wild speculation
Thanks to jkmarler, I noticed that one of the farms that comes closest to Grøntvet is Grønthvet(-Parcellerne) in the county of Hedmark.
That county rung a bell, as AntonH pointed us to the pupil register of a school that was said to be located there according to Digitalarkivet.
The school is named Toftes Gave. Apparently, it was a famous orphanage "for enforced placement of maladjusted children, or children in deficit of parental care", erected by the first mayor of Oslo. The history of the orphanage is difficult to trace, as I find contradictory information. However, it seems in the beginning the orphanage was located in Munkedamsveien, Kristiania.
We find a Anton Julius Hansen there in 1843, age 7 (?) and said to be born in 1832. At first I thought it was the shoemaker, who says he is born in 1834 in Kristiania. But according to the baptismal record, the father of Hans Peter also comes from Kristiania?
Is it possible this pupil is the person we are looking for, as AntonH already suggested? Is it conceivable that an orphane becomes a kontorist (or pretends to be one)?
In the register of 1845, a Johan Anthon Olsen can be found, born in 1833, which would make him one year younger than Anton Julius Hansen.
Thus,
- the orphanage was located in Kristiania where Anton Julius Hansen was born, at the time this pupil is registered in its records
- the orphanage moved to Ullensaker (Risebro farm) in 1858; in 1865 (when Hans Peter Antonsen was born) the orphanage was closeby
- in the autumn of 1877, the orphanage moved to Nedre Sund farm on the island of Helgøya in Hedmark, which means it was located there (and possibly close to the Grønthvet-Parcellerne farm) around 1880 (konfirmation of Hans Peter Antonsen)
It is more fantasy than facts, but I wanted to point this out anyway. Perhaps you could have a look to check whether the entries for Anton Julius Hansen hide any clues?
Can someone check? > entry 1843, entry 1844, entry 1846, |
Edited by - Ruben on 10/05/2025 18:54:37 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2025 : 21:38:33
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#92
Anton Julius whose father was Andreas Hansen on Enerhaugen
Aker prestekontor kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10861/F/L0013: Parish register (official) no. 13, 1828-1837, p. 155
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061110010545
But he was not born on 10 March 1832 as stated in the Toftes records.
Still looking....
Here is an Anthon Julius born 10 Mar 1834 at Enebakk # 41 and father's name Hans Jacob Olsen
Enebakk prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10171c/F/Fa/L0009: Ministerialbok nr. I 9, 1832-1861, s. 19
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060308060023
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Edited by - jkmarler on 10/05/2025 22:12:07 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 03:45:04
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As your wish was to find any additional clues in the Toftesgav listings, the 1846 one is one with additional detail. I cannot give you a word-for-word on what it's saying but it gives his birthdate, that he was placed in Toftes by the social service of Aker from the service to poor people, He was place at toftes two times and gives the 2nd dates of his residencies, then there is something about his getting to Enebakk and then I think it concludes that they haven't had any more contact after 1846.
But maybe Norwegian speakers can decipher the rest.
Re the attest is is translated into French? on one of the other pages following.
I have a question for you. What occupation did Hans Peter follow in the Netherlands excuse me-- Belgium? |
Edited by - jkmarler on 11/05/2025 04:00:44 |
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Ruben
Starting member
Belgium
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 13:25:42
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Thanks!
The first two documents (in French) from the General Consulat simply state (probably in response to a question from the city administration) that Norwegian nationals having reached the age of 21 years, do not need to prove consent or a death certificate from their parents to get married. (This was the case in Belgium at the time.) Furthermore, it states that the announcement of the wedding (giving others the possibility to object, for example when bride or groom were already married) only had to be made in the domicile of the bride.
Therefore no notice was put up in Norway, nor did Hans Peter need to provide a death certificate or statement of his parents.
The third document in French is indeed a translation (albeit not a word-for-word one):
"I certify with the present letter that according to the civil registry of the parish of Ullensaker, Norway, Hans Peter Antonsen is the son of the clerk Anton Julius Hansen of Christiania and of Marie Halvorsdatter Nordby and that he is born on 26 September 1865, baptized on 29 October following and confirmed on 31 October 1880, and that he has obtained the grade 'good knowledge' and 'good behaviour'. According to our knowledge the forementioned person has not taken any wedding vows here."
His occupation registered in the Belgian documents is that of seafarer. Also engineer and ship mechanic can be found, so he probably worked in the engine room of merchant vessels.
There also seems to be a file about him in the registers of sailors on Belgian merchant ships. Those are unfortunately not digitized yet, making it difficult to consult them.
According to the immigration police, he lived in Ullensaker before arriving in Antwerp in 1887. The report, drafted on the 5th of April 1892, says he earned 150 Belgian francs a month as a ship mechanic. His mother was Marie Halvorsdatter, about 50 years old at the time, born in Ullensaker and living at Rothfield garden 20, Christiania. (I can't seem to find this address?)
His father is Anton Julius Hansen, born in Christiania and deceased. The marriage certificate, however, does not mention him to have died. (This information was usually included when the city officials knew about it.) As mentioned in the letter of the Consulat General, no death certificate needed to be provided, nor can one be found in the marriage documents.
It therefore seems logical that the Belgian administration never received a death certificat of Anton Julius Hansen, but that his son declared in 1892 that his father had already died. |
Edited by - Ruben on 11/05/2025 13:48:02 |
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
897 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 14:49:25
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| Is the immigration police report available online? There is no link to it here, right? Is it easy to read, or have your relied on somebody else's transcription, e.g. at familysearch? The quality there is not always reliable. I am thinking about the Rothfield garden 20 in Christiania. |
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Ruben
Starting member
Belgium
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 15:27:04
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I transcribed the report myself and am fairly sure about it.
Report: page 1 and page 2 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 17:33:55
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Attests were generally issued by the parish pastor and generally include information about the person for whom the attest issued. Parents names are often included but information about the parents is pretty little other than their name and parishes in question Many migrants to America carried these slips which they got from their local pastor as they reported that they were leaving for the next parish or to America.
So the sets of records on Hans Peter are his birth / baptism, his confirmation. Sometimes these sheets include his vaccination against small pox schedule but Hans Peter's doesn't seem to.
When & where did Hans Peter die? 1918 in Antwerp, maybe? |
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Ruben
Starting member
Belgium
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 18:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruben
Wow! Thank you so much for your expertise guys!  This already helps a lot!
So, I've written down that
* Hans Peter was indeed born out of wedlock, so we have no marriage certificate to fall back to
* Anton Julius Hansen was a contorist (office worker) at his son's birth
* The candidate born in 1834 became a shoe maker and is therefore probably the wrong Anton Julius
* Marie Halvorsdatter (Nordby?) was perhaps born on 14/08/1838 in Hilton, Ullensaker, daughter of Kari Hansdatter and Halvor Nilsen Hilton (and perhaps family of Paris Hilton – what a great fun-fact!), although the Marie Halvorsdatter ToreL foudn born in Nannestad on 24/12/1838 is the better guess
Anton Julius Hansen
I presume the Anton Julius in the Norway Select Marriages is the wrong one, as the certificate refers to a shoemaker's apprentice. So this is probably the candidate born in 1834 who was a shoe maker in 1885.
@ToreL: Sorry for the wrong url. This was indeed a mistake. I found the Anton Julius born in 1841 here, but as he seems to be married to Ellen Marie Hansen and is a carpenter, it is probably not the right candidate?
I don't think this will help, but in Hans Peter Antonsen's Antwerp marriage papers an annex in Norwegian can be found. Based on the French translation from the embassy, it seems to be a document about his Konfirmasjon with not much information about the parents? Could you confirm?
All Belgian documents seem to state that Anton Julius Hansen was born in Kristiania and Marie Halvorsdatter was born in Ullensaker, but no dates of birth are mentioned and it is unclear how trustworthy these documents are. (It is possible Hans Peter didn't know this information himself and simply stated to Belgian authorities what he thought to be correct?)
According to the same documents, Anton Julius Hansen was already deceased in 05/04/1892.
Another fun-fact: a Anton Julius Hansen was treated in 1854 in Oslo-hospital for syphilis (n°615). The shoemaker born in 1834 seems to have the right age for this.
Death of Hans Peter Antonsen
I am sorry for bombarding you with questions – and please do keep up with helping me in my search for Anton Julius Hansen and Marie Halvorsdatter – but I have another mystery.
Almost everywhere I look, I find sources that state that Hans Peter Antonsen died in Antwerp on 06/11/1918 (Danmarks Adels Aarborg, page 130 and Familysearch). I could, however, not find any death certificate in Antwerp.
I did find a son, Hans Peter Willem Antonsen, born on 17/08/1896. This is probably the Hans Peter Antonsen mentioned here with a date of death on 07/11/1918, as Antwerp is given as the place of residence. Strangly enough, Ullensaker is registered as the place of birth. Could this be the cause of a mix-up? And if so, does this mean Hans Peter's son returned to Norway and is buried there or are all deaths from Norwegian nationals in other countries registered in the Kirkebøker as well?
Unfortunately, I do not know when or where Hans Peter died (see the second point in my earlier post quoted above). But, as I cannot find any death certificate in Antwerp, I am rather sure he did not die there.
The burial I found on DigitalArkivet of the Hans Petter Antonsen domiciled in Antwerp, is possibly that of his son (Hans Peter Willem Antonsen, because 1896 is mentioned as his birth year and Hans Peter Willem was indeed born in Antwerp on 17/08/1896. On the other hand Ullensaker is mentioned as place of birth ...
In short: the burial is either of Hans Peter himself or of his son, Hans Peter Willem and mistakenly
- either mentions the birth place of the father of the deaceased,
- mentions the birth date of the son of the deaceased.
It seems his wife returned to Antwerp in 1919, coming from the Netherlands. Her husband had already died by then.
Perhaps they fled Belgium at the outbreak of or during the First World War, set sail for neutral Norway and then his wife – after Hans Peter had died – fled to the Netherlands (also neutral at the time)? |
Edited by - Ruben on 11/05/2025 18:12:02 |
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ToreL
Advanced member
Norway
897 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 18:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruben
I transcribed the report myself and am fairly sure about it.
Report: page 1 and page 2
OK, this looks quite straightforward, although the second letter could be ö, corresponding to the modern ø. I agree that the second word seems to contain a letter between a and d, but without the r we get gade, which is street in Danish and 1892 Norwegian.
I don't think there ever was a Røthfields gade in Olso, but one does obtain a few matches for Rødfjeld in Oslo. None with any Marie in it, though.
Edit: I am adviced that Rødfjeld is probably a misreading of Rødfyld. Rødfyldgaten (modern spelling Rødfyllgata) was indeed a street in Oslo, but I don't know how likely it is that Rødfyld could turn into Rothfield. |
Edited by - ToreL on 11/05/2025 19:50:34 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2025 : 23:22:31
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Thinking if sea faring was his trade in Belgium, he probably started off in the trade in Norway. I took a turn through the index to the sailor lists of Oslo thinking it would be the closest to Ullensaker. Lots of Antonsen but only one Hans Antonsen (not Hans Peder/ Peter/ Petter Antonsen). His file number (Hovedrulle) was 3822 but I was unable to locate it to view. Norwegian sailor mustering records have an impressive amount of biographical information as well as names of ships, captains thereof and ports of call arranged chronologically.
I went line by line through the deaths recorded in the Norwegian Sailors Lutheran church in Belgium books but found no Hans Peder Antonsen from 1918-1930.
The death record mentioned above was recorded in Haugesund a port on the west coast of Norway. It says that the person was born in Ullensaker, the year is written rather sloppily and it makes me wonder why a sailor's death, if happeining elsewhere probably, is recorded there. Was Hans Peder's son actually born in Ullensaker? |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7865 Posts |
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Antonsen - Fontenay
