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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 23/12/2012 : 22:38:27
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I am trying to locate the birth record and parents names for my great-grandfather Charles Norman, who was born 03 April 1867, and immigrated to America from Norway in 1884.
I have his Petition for Naturalization which gives his name as Charl Olson Norman and his birthplace as Bergen. The petition states that he sailed from Liverpool on the ship "Spain" on 20 April 1884 and arrived in New York on 08 May 1884. I believe he may have adopted the name "Norman" after arriving in the U.S., but I do not know this for certain.
I have been unable to locate any birth or baptismal record in the Bergen/Hordaland digital archives or any record in the 1875 census (which I understand is still incomplete). I also have been unable to positively identify him on any of the passenger lists for the ship "Spain" or any other ship which sailed in 1884.
Any tips or advice which would help me locate a birth record and/or his parents names would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
Eric |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 00:44:43
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I believe his first name was Carl ar Karl. And that his father perhaps was Ole.
Carl Olsen?
Normann means Norwegian so perhaps you are right.
Did he marry Selma and lived in Columbia, Oregon 1930 with two sons, Albert and Loyd? He is supposed to have em. 1891.
Perhaps he had a namesake born 1867 in Norway or the info above is incorrect.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 24/12/2012 00:51:57 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 01:29:39
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The 1910 US Census shows Charles married to Selma and living in Oregon shows him having immigrated in 1884. The 1920 Census also has the 1884 immigration year.
1910 United States Federal Census
Name: Charly Norman
Age in 1910: 42
Birth Year: abt 1868
[1868]
Birthplace: Norway
Home in 1910: Beaver Falls, Columbia, Oregon
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1884
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
[Head]
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Selma Norman
Father's Birthplace: Norway
Mother's Birthplace: Norway
Neighbors:
Household Members:
Name Age
Charly Norman 42
Selma Norman 32
Albert Norman 8
Ruth Norman 6
Victor Norman 4
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Edited by - AntonH on 24/12/2012 01:31:45 |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 02:13:57
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The Karl referenced by Hopkins is probably this one, Destination is listed as Kan.
Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943
Name: Karl Olson
Arrival Date: 1 Sep 1890
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Queenstown, Ireland and Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Pavonia
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 02:26:23
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According to the records listed on Ancestry.com, the ship The Spain did not dock on the 8th of May. The nearest date was the 13th of May. I could not find a name on the 1500 or so passengers on the Spain docking on May 13 that fit your person. Very few if any of the passengers were from Norway.
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 03:04:28
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Some parts of the 1875 census are online. These are those whose names contain arl, whose last name begins with ols and who were born 1867 +/- 1 year, living in Bergen:
Pers. no. Given name Last name Floor Sex Position Marital status Occupation Birth year Birth place Birth pl. standardised Address
9274 13 Karl Olsen 2den Etage Hovedbygning m Deres Søn 1868 Bergen Bergen 9-123
14314 7 Karl Johan Olsen 1 ste Etage m Søn ug 1866 Bergen Bergen 11-205e
27904 16 Carl Olsen 2den Etage m Søn ug forsørges af Forældrene 1866 Bergen Bergen 22-130
31784 15 Carl Olsen 1ste m Søn ug Fs. af Forældrene 1866 Strudshavn Sogn Askøen 23-196
The birthplace listed for the two tripper Carl is Aarstad which is a district in the center of Bergen. Which church serves that area in 1866-1868? Domkirke?
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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 08:21:31
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Thanks Kåre.
Yes, he married Selma Johnson in Portland, Oregon, in 1901. He lived in Columbia County, Oregon from 1903 until his death 26 Sept 1945. Albert and Lloyd were two of their five children. The 1910 and 1920 census as well as his naturalization papers have the immigration year as 1884, so it looks like the 1891 immigration year shown in the 1930 census is a mistake.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
I believe his first name was Carl ar Karl. And that his father perhaps was Ole.
Carl Olsen?
Normann means Norwegian so perhaps you are right.
Did he marry Selma and lived in Columbia, Oregon 1930 with two sons, Albert and Loyd? He is supposed to have em. 1891.
Perhaps he had a namesake born 1867 in Norway or the info above is incorrect.
Kåre
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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 08:40:07
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Thanks for the reply Lyndal.
This is the correct Charl Olson Norman. He and Selma had two additional children born after 1910, Lloyd Norman and Roy Roland Norman (my grandfather).
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
The 1910 US Census shows Charles married to Selma and living in Oregon shows him having immigrated in 1884. The 1920 Census also has the 1884 immigration year.
1910 United States Federal Census
Name: Charly Norman
Age in 1910: 42
Birth Year: abt 1868
[1868]
Birthplace: Norway
Home in 1910: Beaver Falls, Columbia, Oregon
Race: White
Gender: Male
Immigration Year: 1884
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
[Head]
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Selma Norman
Father's Birthplace: Norway
Mother's Birthplace: Norway
Neighbors:
Household Members:
Name Age
Charly Norman 42
Selma Norman 32
Albert Norman 8
Ruth Norman 6
Victor Norman 4
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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 09:15:09
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Thanks Hopkins & Lyndal.
I will look closer at this one tomorrow. If "Kan" means Kansas then I doubt it is my great grandfather. However it may be possible since our family knows very little about his life prior to his marriage to Selma Johnson in 1901. We believe he may have come to Kalama, Washington, when he first immigrated, but I have not been able to prove this. He was living in the Portland, Oregon, area in 1895.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
The Karl referenced by Hopkins is probably this one, Destination is listed as Kan.
Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943
Name: Karl Olson
Arrival Date: 1 Sep 1890
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Queenstown, Ireland and Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Pavonia
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts
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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 09:55:08
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Thanks Lyndal,
I noticed that as well. I always assumed that since he waited 32 years to become a U.S. citizen that when the paperwork was filled out he was a bit "fuzzy" with the details. You are correct - there were very few Norwegians on that sailing. Unless he sailed under a much different name or was somehow left off the list then I don't think he was on that sailing. I have checked passenger lists from other "Spain" sailings from 1884 as well as from other ships during that time of the year and while there are some with similar names & ages, they are impossible to pin down without additional information.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
According to the records listed on Ancestry.com, the ship The Spain did not dock on the 8th of May. The nearest date was the 13th of May. I could not find a name on the 1500 or so passengers on the Spain docking on May 13 that fit your person. Very few if any of the passengers were from Norway.
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Eric Tover
Starting member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 09:59:02
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Thank for the look-ups jkmarler. I will look into these when I have some extra time over the next few days.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by jkmarler
Some parts of the 1875 census are online. These are those whose names contain arl, whose last name begins with ols and who were born 1867 +/- 1 year, living in Bergen:
Pers. no. Given name Last name Floor Sex Position Marital status Occupation Birth year Birth place Birth pl. standardised Address
9274 13 Karl Olsen 2den Etage Hovedbygning m Deres Søn 1868 Bergen Bergen 9-123
14314 7 Karl Johan Olsen 1 ste Etage m Søn ug 1866 Bergen Bergen 11-205e
27904 16 Carl Olsen 2den Etage m Søn ug forsørges af Forældrene 1866 Bergen Bergen 22-130
31784 15 Carl Olsen 1ste m Søn ug Fs. af Forældrene 1866 Strudshavn Sogn Askøen 23-196
The birthplace listed for the two tripper Carl is Aarstad which is a district in the center of Bergen. Which church serves that area in 1866-1868? Domkirke?
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 12:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins
Perhaps this Carl who obviously made the trip more than once from Bergen -
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=20&filnamn=EMIBERG&gardpostnr=27598&sokefelt=skjul
An interesting Ole Olsen born in Årstad, Bergen.
Årstad was a subparish under St. Jørgens Hospital, Bergen, until ca 1880.
Karl Johan Olsen (Fyllingen)
Fyllingen is a population centre in Bergen. He was born in Årstad and lived in Årstad
Info in the em. record from Bergen tells he em. 1884, returned Mai 1890 and em. again August 1890, "ug" unmarried.
Kåre |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 13:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric Tover
Thanks Lyndal,
I noticed that as well. I always assumed that since he waited 32 years to become a U.S. citizen that when the paperwork was filled out he was a bit "fuzzy" with the details. You are correct - there were very few Norwegians on that sailing. Unless he sailed under a much different name or was somehow left off the list then I don't think he was on that sailing. I have checked passenger lists from other "Spain" sailings from 1884 as well as from other ships during that time of the year and while there are some with similar names & ages, they are impossible to pin down without additional information.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
According to the records listed on Ancestry.com, the ship The Spain did not dock on the 8th of May. The nearest date was the 13th of May. I could not find a name on the 1500 or so passengers on the Spain docking on May 13 that fit your person. Very few if any of the passengers were from Norway.
Another possibility is that he was "crew" in 1884 rather than passenger. You don't see many lists with crew in the 1880s. Maybe the 1890 trip was for "pleasure" rather than work? |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 24/12/2012 : 14:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric Tover
Thanks Hopkins & Lyndal.
I will look closer at this one tomorrow. If "Kan" means Kansas then I doubt it is my great grandfather. However it may be possible since our family knows very little about his life prior to his marriage to Selma Johnson in 1901. We believe he may have come to Kalama, Washington, when he first immigrated, but I have not been able to prove this. He was living in the Portland, Oregon, area in 1895.
Eric
quote:
Originally posted by lyndal40
The Karl referenced by Hopkins is probably this one, Destination is listed as Kan.
Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943
Name: Karl Olson
Arrival Date: 1 Sep 1890
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Queenstown, Ireland and Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Pavonia
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts
Or perhaps Kan means Kanada, which would make a lot of sense on the west coast. When /where did he and Selma marry? Never mind --asked and answered. |
Edited by - jkmarler on 24/12/2012 14:04:41 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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Charl Olson Norman
