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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
 Posted - 14/11/2013 : 16:38:00
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Thanks all, and thanks luvjan65 for explaining that no further information can be gleaned from Cornelius's marriage and death record. Disappointing.
It is now highly likely that Hans in Beaver, Fillmore county, Minnesota, is one of the children of Johannes Nilssøn Hillestad / Berg (1798-1873) and Elen Kirstine Hans-Jørgensdatter Kløvstad (1808-1881). He lived in some census years with a sibling. Jacob Cornelius Hillestad in Beaver, Fillmore county, Minnesota, has a birth date Oct 1848 (1900 census) that matches a birth record in Norway (30 Oct 1848), so he is highly likely also a member of that family. It's just about impossible, then, to continue the belief that Johannes and Elen are parents for the man in Maryland.
And now ALL previous assertions about the Cornelius in Maryland come into question. I suspect those assertions were based on an American descendant having already identified the candidate family in Norway, and reflected the family in Norway, not the Cornelius in Maryland. luvjan65, Can you please tell the Norway researchers:
1) Is there an American source that you know of for the middle name "Jacob"?
2) Is there an American source for the assertion that "your" Cornelius had a sister named Grethe?
3) Will you please double-check and check again to see that this forum has all possible clues from America as to the identity of "your" Cornelius?
You've added records and also the notion that he may have entered via the port of Philadelphia and told us why - thanks for that - and that's the kind of thing I mean.
4) Do the records for his wife or children (birth/marriage/death) shed any light?
5) Have you found wife Mary in the 1870 census?
6) Is Georgeanna's parentage proven by the USA tribe? The second daughter is named Sarah, as per her mother's mother; could Georgeanna's name reflect the name of her father's mother? She is likely a child of Cornelius or Mary but not both.
I'm not expecting that you can add any or all of this but just double-checking with you.
Two American records are consistent that "your" Cornelius's birth date was May 1845 (1900 census) /13 May 1845 (death record).
1880
District 12, Baltimore, Maryland
Cornelius Johnson 35 born about 1845 Norway, parents born Norway, farmer
Mary J. Johnson 27 born about 1853 Maryland
Georgeanna Johnson 10 daughter, b Maryland, father b Norway mother b Maryland [born long before Jan 1874 marriage of C & M]
Sarah E. Johnson 5 b Maryland
John H. Johnson 2
Sarah Mesner 50, widowed, mother-in-law, b about 1830 Pennsylvania; parents born Pennsylvania
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Edited by - JaneC on 14/11/2013 18:04:10 |
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luvjan65
Starting member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2013 : 18:39:25
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In regards to JaneC's questions and statement. I do believe that Johannes Nilsson Hillestad and Elen Kirstine Hans-Jorgesdatter Klovstad are NOT the parents of my Cornelius Johnson living in Maryland. I have previously posted questions on Jakob Cornelius Johnson, believing he was my great grandfather, now I see he is not the person I am searching. Now for the questions...
1) None of my sources give me a middle name for Cornelius.
2) No other family members for Cornelius (parents, siblings )are listed anywhere in my papers.
3) I have checked and rechecked, 1880, 1900, 1910 census marriage and death information.
4) Have not found any information on Mary Messenger other than marriage. Cross referenced Cornelius and Mary's children (Frank and Walter) have found census records which list there father as being born in Norway. Also have WWI, WW11 draft records.
5) As noted earlier, I believe I may have found two pieces of information last night. a) 1870 location of Cornelius Johnson b) Same 1870 census found a George Messinger age 29 b: 1826, could be Mary Messinger's father (currently looking into this)
6) Georgeanna's parentage is still not determined.
Again, I so much appreciate everyone's help dearly. Thank you! |
Janet |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2013 : 19:24:56
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I believe we have the right Cornelius Johnsen, but the final evidence is needed.
Traditional Norwegian naming practice;
- Cornelius Johnsen em. without the parents his father was John with unknown lastnanme.
- Cornelius Johnsen em. with the parents, his father was Johnsen with unknown 1. name.
You have probably seen this too.
Others having problems finding the origin of Cornelius Johnson link
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 14/11/2013 20:00:00 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2013 : 21:24:07
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Not finding the immigration record. I looked again at the US census records. Cornelius Johnson in Philadelphia in 1870 could be the correct man; he is living with two other young men. In the 1900 census no year of immigration or naturalization is stated but the 1910 indeed does say he immigrated 1869. Cornelius is a laborer in 1900 but the sons are farm workers. Cornelius does truck farming in 1910. In 1910 he is naturalized. (Does anyone have that record?)
In 1880 in Baltimore Mary and Cornelius and her mother Sarah Mesner are living near John Mesner (see below). On Ancestry I checked only 3 trees; these had Mary's parents in Indiana in 1880 (including mother Sarah), whereas "our" Sarah Mesner is with Cornelius and Mary in Baltimore in 1880. (The wrong parents were David Chandler Messenger and Sarah Waller.)
1860
P. O. Sandy Springs, District 5, Montgomery, Maryland
William Messner 25 b abt 1835 Maryland
Sarah Messner 25 b abt 1835 Maryland
Mary Messner 8 b abt 1852 Maryland
John Messner 3 b abt 1857 Maryland
1870 - I haven't found Mary Mesner/Messner/Messenger
There's a record of Civil War service ca 1861-1865 for Wm Messner of Maryland listed as "also known as" Joseph Messner
1880
District 12, Baltimore, Maryland
John H. Mesner 24 b abt 1856 Maryland
Elizabeth Mesner 20 b abt 1860 Germany
Mary Mesner 1m
[--above is on page 9 of the 1880 census; Cornelius and Mary are on page 10 of the census]
1900
Election District 15, Baltimore City (Independent City), Maryland
John H Messner 45 b Feb 1855 Maryland
Lizzie Messner 32
Emma Messner 18
Henry Messner 14
William Messner 13
David Messner 11
Fredrick Messner 9
Anna Messner 7
Lizzie Messner 4
1910 in Baltimore (indexed as "Magsamen:) John H & Elizabeth C w Emma, David A, Fredrick, Annie, Elizabeth, and Timothy b 1903
1920 in Baltimore, John H Messenger age 65 and Elizabeth C Messenger 59 living with son Fredrick Messenger 29
1930 in Baltimore, Elizabeth is a widow, living with Fred
Haha all this led to a Find-a-Grave memorial in Baltimore created by prob. you luvjan. Good to know we are on the same track:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=117486069&PIpi=89143115
The point in me doing this was trying to find Cornelius in 1870; it wasn't looking like Mary would have been in Philadelphia - but he could have been. |
Edited by - JaneC on 15/11/2013 01:20:56 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 00:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
The point in me doing this was trying to find Cornelius in 1870; it wasn't looking like Mary would have been in Philadelphia - but he could have been.
When Jacob Cornelius and sister Grethe dep. Oslo April 22. 1870 on ship Hero for Hull, England, dest. was Stoughton and the tickets was paid for in America.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 15/11/2013 00:41:59 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 00:57:28
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But Kåre, we were confused about those people who em 1870 and went to Stoughton, Wisconsin. Some things about the story (told in other forums) turned out to be wrong and we didn't check out enough. Now we know that it's two different men.
BEAVER, FILLMORE, MINNESOTA
Jacob Cornelius Hillestad 1880 US census
Jacob Cornelius Hillestad 1900 US census. 1900 census says b Oct 1848 in Norway.
Jacob Cornelius Hillestad (mother Elen Kirstine Hans-Jørgensdatter Kløvstad) was born Oct 1848 per Norway birth record. <---[he em. 1870 w Grete]
More people in Fillmore, Minnesota could be the siblings.
One was Hans Jørgen Hillestand. Hans's death record says mother maiden name Klovsted. Lived same place as Jacob. He's the right age to be Jacob's brother.
So we do not have proof but we think the Jacob Cornelius in Minnesota must be son of Johannes Nilssøn Hillestad and Elen Kirstine Hans-Jørgensdatter Kløvstad.
BALTIMORE, MARYLAND
Cornelius Johnson: 1880 census
Cornelius Johnson: 1900 census. 1900 census says b May 1845 in Norway.
Cornelius Johnson in Maryland: Death record says b 13 May 1845 in Norway. No parents named.
Probably no middle name Jacob.
Probably no sister Grete.
No immigration record found.
Married January 1874 in Baltimore. No parents' names.
Now we are seeking the Norwegian roots for Cornelius Johnson in Maryland. |
Edited by - JaneC on 15/11/2013 01:16:37 |
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luvjan65
Starting member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 01:44:16
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JaneC, the reason why I was leaning toward the Messinger's living in PA is because in two of my three census records I have with Mary Messinger, both of her parents are from PA. So I was trying to put two and two together. I am thinking boy, Cornelius Johnson sure did get married quick once he arrived here, so where would he have met Mary? Makes sense to maybe meet someone that knew her a family or friend, she would have been 15 yrs old.
Here is the census information I am going by,
Name: Mary J. Johnson [Mary J. Mesner]
Home in 1880: District 12, Baltimore, Maryland
Spouse's Name: Cornelius Johnson
Father's Birthplace: Pennsylvania
Mother's Name: Sarah Mesner
Mother's Birthplace: Pennsylvania
Name: Mary Johnson
Home in 1900: Election District 15, Baltimore City (Independent City), Maryland
Spouse's Name: C Johnson
Father's Birthplace: Maryland
Mother's Birthplace: Maryland
Name: Mary J Johnson [Mary M Johnson] [Mary K Johnson]
Home in 1910: Election District 15, Baltimore, Maryland
Spouse's Name: Cornelius Johnson
Father's Birthplace: Pennsylvania
Mother's Birthplace: Pennsylvania
And yes, we are on same page. I also have tried to put Jacob with "sister" Grete and have not been able to make connection, saw two on ship passenger list, but could not find them in same family in Norway (when I was looking for that Cornelius Johnson) which I now believe is not the same person.
Thank you again, can not say it enough. |
Janet |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 02:44:42
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| Yes, thanks, I totally got it as to why you searched in Philadelphia; I did too. Best thing to find would be a departure in Norway that matches your Cornelius and/or a birth record 13 May 1845. Cornelius should register his intent to go to Amerika with his parish priest. Not always the case - one wonders if he worked his way to North America as a seaman. Wish it were easier for you... |
Edited by - JaneC on 15/11/2013 05:16:48 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 16:54:56
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
But Kåre, we were confused about those people who em 1870 and went to Stoughton, Wisconsin. Some things about the story (told in other forums) turned out to be wrong and we didn't check out enough. Now we know that it's two different men.
Ok.
Just some thoughts that is difficult to get an answer to 
I wonder how many of the 800 000 em. from Norway who amended destinations?
There is a town Stoughton south of Boston in Mass.
There must have been letters that have crossed the Atlantic both ways before the 1879 em. with good advices etc.
Their sibling that em. first probably worked or borrowed money for the tickets to Jacob C. and Grethe that was paid for in America.
What if they only met in Stoughton which was not the final dest. of the journey.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 15/11/2013 16:56:36 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 17:41:52
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quote:
Their sibling that em. first probably worked or borrowed money for the tickets to Jacob C. and Grethe that was paid for in America.
The Jacob C and Grethe who came to America are likely the ones found in Minnesota in the 1880 Census. Jacob now using the name Hillestad lived in Fillmore County , Minnesota and Grethe now married and using the name Rasmussen lived in the next county Houston County, Minnesota.
Unfortunately we have learned little to nothing about where Corneilus Johnson of Maryland came from. |
Edited by - AntonH on 15/11/2013 17:43:17 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2013 : 22:40:46
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Hi Kåre - the previous discussions are confusing and had wrong facts and are way too long. I think we lost you somewhere in there.
lyndal40 is correct. No one has found a birth and/or emigration record for Cornelius Johnson in Baltimore, Maryland.
It's too bad we lost you because I thought you would find that by now! hehe
Cornelius Johnson
Born 13 May 1845 (SOURCE: his death record, as told us by luvjan)
Married January 1874 in Baltimore, Maryland, USA (SOURCE: his marriage record, as told us by luvjan)
No parents on his marriage record or his death record.
NO middle name Jacob
Probably em. about 1869 (SOURCE: the 1910 US census says 1869)
The January 1874 marriage is the earliest time he was found in USA records.
luvjan: 1910 census says Cornelius was naturalized. Do you have his citizenship papers? |
Edited by - JaneC on 15/11/2013 23:11:32 |
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luvjan65
Starting member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 16/11/2013 : 00:49:13
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I am working on finding those Naturalizations papers. I had no idea where he may have come ashore, until I had a hint that he may have arrived in Philadelphia, so I will follow that lead and see if that tells me anything.
Thanks, |
Janet |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 16/11/2013 : 01:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
Hi Kåre - the previous discussions are confusing and had wrong facts and are way too long. I think we lost you somewhere in there.
lyndal40 is correct. No one has found a birth and/or emigration record for Cornelius Johnson in Baltimore, Maryland.
It's too bad we lost you because I thought you would find that by now! hehe
Cornelius Johnson
Born 13 May 1845 (SOURCE: his death record, as told us by luvjan)
Married January 1874 in Baltimore, Maryland, USA (SOURCE: his marriage record, as told us by luvjan)
No parents on his marriage record or his death record.
NO middle name Jacob
Probably em. about 1869 (SOURCE: the 1910 US census says 1869)
The January 1874 marriage is the earliest time he was found in USA records.
luvjan: 1910 census says Cornelius was naturalized. Do you have his citizenship papers?
I missed that, ok, Cornelius was ca 25 when he em. most likley without the parents.
Cornelis Johnsen (Johns son)
I believe his father was John, Jon, Johan, Johannes.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 16/11/2013 01:08:10 |
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Cornelius Johnson from Norway to US
