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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2014 : 09:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lornejohnson
I have a Johannes as a son of Johannes Halvorsen and Gunild Nilsdatter Kleven born October 5, 1834.
The Johannes you are looking for is #124.
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Einar |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2014 : 18:43:28
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| Thanks for the confirmation on son Johannes's birth date. Do you have any suggestions of where else to look for the birth date of Ingebor Johannesdatr circa 1834. All the family information is in the Boe Parish records (including an older brother and two younger brothers) except for Ingebor. ??? As they appeared to have had a good relationship with their church I find this a bit strange. |
Lorne Johnson |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2014 : 08:33:24
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Ingeborgs confirmation record is #110 - info is that she was born in Sauda.
Her baptismal record is #30 - she was born June 19 1825 on the farm Kise in Næs, Sauherad.
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 08/04/2014 10:38:52 |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2014 : 18:03:10
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| Thanks again Einar. What made you think to go back as far as 1825? The information I had was she was 10 years old in 1843 ....the time of their leaving Norway. I did look under Sauherad Parish records but didn't think to go back beyond 1830. I suppose the "10 " could be easily mistaken from a "18" ?? I really appreciate this. |
Lorne Johnson |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2014 : 19:47:09
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This information is taken from the "Family Search" New York, New York passenger list. .....the name Johan Johnsen however does not show up on the passenger list from this (NorwayHeritage ) website. Am I missing something?
Name: Johan Johnsen
Event Type: Immigration
Event Date: 1843
Event Place: New York, New York, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 10
Last Place of Residence: Norway
Ship Name: Salvador
Birth Year (Estimated): 1833
Affiliate Publication Title: Index to Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, New York, 1820-1846.
Affiliate Publication Number: M261
Affiliate Film Number: 49
GS Film number: 350252
Digital Folder Number: 004786714
Image Number: 00325
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Lorne Johnson |
Edited by - lornejohnson on 11/04/2014 23:55:45 |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2014 : 20:11:34
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| It is not only Johan who is missing from the list, it is the list itself, Is that right? |
Edited by - JaneC on 12/04/2014 04:15:20 |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 00:18:57
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| I'm assuming that the ship listed on this site as the "SalvaTor" is the same ship that FamilySearch is calling the "SalvaDor" ?? The ship's list is not missing - just Johan is missing off of this list. Other people from the FamilySearch site who are indicated to be on board the 1843 sailing are in fact on the NorwegianHeritage ship's list. ......but not 10 year old Johan. |
Lorne Johnson |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 05:22:34
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This seems to be the record you are citing.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20225-63586-70?cc=1919703
Whoever has recorded the passenger list (presumably an employee of the ship or shipping company) has recorded the ship name as Salvador.
This Johan with family name Johnsen is accompanied by John, Ole, Helvey, Gunild, Turid?, and Torkills?. You mention other people on the boat. Is this who you mean?
Johan Johnsen is age 10, from Norway.
Date on the record is 7/13/1843.
Port of arrival is New York.
NARA microfilm publication M261
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Here is the passenger list for the Salvator - arriving New York 13 July 1843 - as posted on the Norway Heritage website.
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_list.asp?jo=1638
On this list is a Torkild Johnsen age 47 and a Turid Johnsen age 46, Gunild Torkelsdatter 18, Helvig Torkelsdatter 16, Ole Torkelsen 20, and John Torkelsen age 1 - and Jøran Torkelsdatter age 13.
NARA Roll # 57 list 547
Bark Salvator 1843, from Porsgrunn May 13 to New York July 13
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Seems like the Salvator could be the Salvador, as you suggest. The family group matches, mostly. It's unclear to me how to mate the NARA citation to double check it's the same voyage. Have you done that?
Bottom line is I think you're possibly looking at an error in transcription but would be interested to hear other opinions from the forum.
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Edited by - JaneC on 12/04/2014 05:56:12 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 08:09:29
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"A man with more than one watch is never really sure what time it is."
Volume I 1825-1843 of Naeseth's Norwegian Immigrants to the United States: A Biographical Directory 1825-1850 on Salvator on page 187 has this family. They are identified as coming from the Listul farm in Gjerpen.
Regards the controversy about Johan Johnsen / John Torkelsen, this is what Naeseth says:
"...John Torkelsen Listul [John Johnsen] b. Dec 30, 1841, d 1920..."
John Torkelsen Listul is the name of the person Naeseth's research has identified, [John Johnsen] is how the name appears on the list. On the Norwayheritage list, other than Torkild the rest of the family member's names are marked with an * meaning some information is missing in the entry.
So basically there are 3 secondary sources (3 watches) of the names on the passenger list for the ship Salvator's 1843 trip to US: the index card at familysearch, the list at Norwayheritage and Naeseth's list.
The thing to do to settle the differences would be to look at the actual, longhand passenger list, probably on microfilm and decide what interpretation you think is right.
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 13:49:23
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Very helpful, thanks.
Johan age 10 on the NARA card available at Family Search (FS) is traveling with John, per the FS index card, so the passenger list would have both if no errors were made.
* Jøran is missing from the family group on the NARA index card at Family Search. (Female, age 13, Norway Heritage list)
* Johan is missing from the family group on the transcribed passenger list at Norway Heritage. (Male, age 10, FS card)
* In both versions the family has five children; the other names match.
The mistake could be with these two. The two names can sound alike, when someone (the father, likely) speaks the name and someone else writes it down. The child may not be immediately in view so a mistake in gender goes right along with the mistake in name.
Why the mistake in age? Could be a mistake in the transcription. Viewing the originals (outgoing and incoming lists) may clarify what is what.
Okay, now I've found a description of the family that includes Joran but no Johan.
http://www.slekt.org/utvandring/1843-001.html
TORKILD JOHNSEN LIESTUL
Utreist med/Emigrated on: bark SALVATOR
Utreist til/Emigrated to: Merton township, Waukesha county, Wisconsin. Had in 1860 travelled on to Scandinavia township, Wisconsin
Torkild Johnsen Liestul - Born: 1795 on Gromstulen, Gjerpen - Bapt: 27 Sept 1795 - Married: 1819 - Dead: 1878 - Buried: Scandinavia Luth. Cemetary. Father: Jon Torchildsen Gromstulen. Mother: Gunhild Rasmusdatter
(wife)Thurine Helgesdatter - (widow after Ole Halvorsen Listul) - Born: 1796 under Nordre Foss, Gjerpen - Bapt: 26 Dec 1796 - Dead: 1877 - Buried: Scandinavia Luth. Cemetary. Father: Helje Erichsen. Mother: Jøran Svendsdatter
(son) Ole Torkildsen - Born: 25 June 1823 on Liestul, Gjerpen - Married: 15 Juli 1849 Johanne Nielsdatter - Dead: 22 April 1877. Both are buried in the Scandinavian Luth. Cem.
(dau) Gunild Torkildsdatter - Born: 7 Aug 1825 on Liestul, Gjerpen - Married: 17 Sep 1845 Christoffer Olsen Sætret - Dead: 26 Feb 1923
(dau) Helvig Torkildsdatter - Born: 31 Aug 1827 on Liestul, Gjerpen - Married: Christian Hansen - Dead: 13 June 1894
(dau) Jørand Torkildsdatter - Born: 13 March 1830 on Liestul, Gjerpen -
(son) John Torkildsen - Born: 30 Dec 1841 on Liestul, Gjerpen - Married: Ingeborg Jacobsdatter Tudal - Dead: 1920. Both are buried in the Scandinavia Luth. Cem.
TORKILD JOHNSEN LIESTUL
Torkild Listul was the brother of John Johnsen Svenholt, Ellev Johnsen Bestul, and Rasmus Bestul... Torkild Johnsen Listul (1795 - 1878 ) Born on Gromstulen in Gjerpen to Jon Torchildsen Gromstulen and Gunhild Rasmusdatter. Married Thurine Helgesdatter, widow of Ole Halvorsen Listul, in 1819. She was born in 1796 on Nordre Foss in Gjerpen to Helje Erichsen and Joran Svendsdatter. She died in 1877. They immigrated on the Salvator in 1843 and Torkild’s brother, Ellev, and his family probably waited to hear from Torkil before immigrating to the United States a year later. Torkil Listul may have been the only one of the Pine Lake Norwegians in 1843 to settle south of the Pine Lake. The Stone Bank records also reveal that Torkil Listul and family “united themselves to a Lutheran parish in the settlement in August, 1847. This entry, probably made by Unonius, reveals that the Listuls, who settled south of Pine Lake, had left the Episcopal Church to go along with Dietrichson. It is fairly certain that they joined the church at Stone Bank. (Per unknown auther who tracked Norwegians from this area who moved to Iola/Scandinavia area.) John Listul, a son of Torkel, told Helgeson that his father and Rollefson came to Scandinavia, (as I understand the text), in 1851. It is said that he had moved there by 1860. Torkild & Thurine are buried in Scandinavia Lutheran Cemetery. Jan Christenson says he moved to Scandinavia Township in 1860.
CHILDREN
Ole Torkildsen (6-25-1823 on Liestul in Gjerpen to 4-22-1877) m. Johanne Nielsdatter on 7-15-1849. Both buried at Scandinavia Cemetery.
Gunhild Torkildsdatter (8-7-1825 on Liestul to 2-26-1923) m. Christopher Olsen Saetret (or Sether) who immigrated in 1843 to the Town of Oconomowoc. The family moved in 1854 to Scandinavia, Wis. where Christopher worked as a carpenter.
Helvig Torkildsdatter (8-31-1827 on Liestul to 6-13-1894) m. Christian Hansen
Jorand Torkildsdatter (3-13-1830 on Liestul to ?)
John Torkildsen (12-30-1841 on Liestul to 1920) m. Ingeborg Jacobsdatter. Both buried at Scandinavia Cemetery.
Note: This is obvious but I'll lay it on the table in front of us anyway. The switch between "Torkildsen" and "Johnsen" in the records isn't bothersome as this is simply a typical switcheroo that happens for Scandinavian immigrants. An immigrant father arriving in USA whose surname is Johnsen might be assumed to have children whose surname is Johnsen. When his name is recorded, their surname is simply ditto.
This Family Tree says Jarend Torkildsdatter b. 1828, m. Anders Anderson Naller.
http://www.slekt.org/utvandring/bestul_family_tree.html
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Edited by - JaneC on 12/04/2014 14:12:59 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 16:57:56
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Maybe four sources. Ancestry.com has the ship and the passengers. It is a little hard to get to but doable.
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Name: Torkils Johnsen
Arrival Date: 13 Jul 1843
Birth Date: abt 1796
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Porsgrunn, Norway
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Salvador
Search Ship Database:
The orginal manifest shows
Thorkild Johnsen age 47
(hard to read) age 46
Gunild age 18
Helvig age 16
Joran age 13
Ole age 20
John age 1
No last names given for the 6 names folowing Thorkild, only the symbol for same.
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Edited by - AntonH on 12/04/2014 18:04:14 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 17:48:44
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Searching the Acestry.com record for the Salvador there are 18 passengers on the Salvador born between 1830 and 1834. The only one that fits the information on this family is Joran Johnsen. This person is travelling with the Thorkild Johnsen and family listed above. This person is listed as male by the transcriber but my reading of the orginal manifest is female same as hard to read probably Thurine. However following Joran are Ole and John and they are given the same as above symbol.
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Name: Joran Johnsen
Arrival Date: 13 Jul 1843
Birth Date: abt 1830
Age: 13
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Porsgrunn, Norway
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Salvador |
Edited by - AntonH on 12/04/2014 18:03:34 |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 19:56:33
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| The reason I sent you on this wild goose chase is because I thought Johan might be the brother of Niels Johansen on the same ship. Niels (N. Johansen on the ships list) uses the name Kleva and the age is correct to be the son of Gunnild Nilsdatter Kleven. Gunnild and son Anders are on a ships list for the same year but different ship . (Tecumseh) The same for the daughter Ingeborg. (Argo) You pulled a lot of information for the Johan Johnsen family...do you have access to this kind of information for Gunnild and Johannes Halverson family? I have limited information about them from the Norwegian-American Society volume 1 booklet but would be interested in anything else you might be able to find. Again, thank you for your dedication to help on this topic. I really appreciate your efforts and admire your ability to find information.........Lorne |
Lorne Johnson |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 21:06:06
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> "Gunnild and son Anders are on a ships list for the same year but different ship . (Tecumseh) The same for the daughter Ingeborg. (Argo)" <
Do the links below show the passenger lists you mean?
Bark Tecumseh 1843, from Havre to New York Aug. 8
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_list.asp?jo=2201
Gunnild Nilsdatter Roa, age 46
http://www.norwayheritage.com/udvandret.asp?type=passengerlist&ps=33180&jo=2201
Ship Argo 1843, from Havre June 23 to New York July 26
are you looking at #295 Ingeborg Johannesdatter age 18?
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_list.asp?jo=2197
Found the following transcriptions on Ancestry.com:
New York, Passenger and Immigration Lists, 1820-1850
Name: Gunnild Nilsdatter, age 46 (with Anders, age 1)
Arrival Date: 7 Aug 1843
Gender: F (Female)
Port of Arrival: New York
Port of Departure: Havre
Place of Origin: Norway
Ship: Tecumseh
Family Identification: 30122820
Microfilm Serial Number: M237, Microfilm Roll Number: 52
Looked at the original manifest of the above. The farm name "Roa" does not follow Gunnild's name; she appears on the list below a family with farm name Roa. All the passengers on that manifest page are from Norway going to United States. My guess is the ship left from Havre, traveled to a Norwegian port, and onward from there, but the history of that trip is probably easily researched probably within this website. On the Norway Heritage transcription the * beside the name Roa indicates it does not appear in the original but has been added (there's more info on this process on this website).
New York, Passenger and Immigration Lists, 1820-1850
Name: Ingeborg Johannesdatter
Arrival Date: 26 Jul 1843
Age: 18
Gender: F (Female)
Port of Arrival: New York
Port of Departure: Havre
Place of Origin: Deutschland
Ship: Argo
Family Identification: 30121895
Microfilm Serial Number: M237, Microfilm Roll Number: 52
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Edited by - JaneC on 12/04/2014 21:40:09 |
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lornejohnson
Senior member
Canada
287 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2014 : 23:19:59
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Yes these are the correct links for Gunnild, baby Anders and daughter Ingeborg. As the * indicates that information was incomplete could it be that the farm name "Roa" is not accurate? The ages are pretty much spot on. So what's your assessment Jane? Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Would the microfilm have any other clues as to the name Roa vs Kleven ?
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Lorne Johnson |
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Gunild Nilsdatterr Kleven under Askilt
