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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
 Posted - 26/10/2007 : 14:59:48
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36 yr old Jacob Andersen (of Holsmark farm) from Lier makes a trip from Oslo/Kristiania on or about 22 March 1872 to Port Huron??
Emigrant from Kristiania/Oslo
"Mathea" and the kids travel a few months later listed under variation of her patronymic -
Family sails
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Lislcat
Advanced member
USA
690 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 17:14:10
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Here are the possible connections in Hull that Jakob Andersen Holsmark may have sailed on. http://www.norwayheritage.com/t_corresp.asp?id=459
Since he sailed on the Hero and that's with the Allan Line, he may have continued with the Allan Line by taking the S/S Austrian or the S/S Sarmatian. I haven't found ship lists for those two ships, but maybe someone else will have better luck.
Wanda |
Lislcat |
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letaoconnor
Junior member
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 19:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
Hi,
not sure but this could be Jacobs mother Mari Johnsdatter age 12 in 1801 on farm Moe Nordre (Northern) and her parents, cotter with land John Olsen and Eli Elefsdatter and two siblings, Ole and Dorthe.
This could be his father Anders Johansen age 7 in 1801 on farm Stadum and his parents, cotter with land Johannes Pedersen and Giertrud Pedersdatter and one brother, Peder age 3.
Only a theory:
Normally if Jacob was oldest son he would have been named after one of his his grandfathers, so for that reason it seems perhaps he could have elder brothers.
Kåre
In reading the older documents - Birth and Baptism. Will it read, father's name, then the child's name in bolder letters, then the mother's name and then wittinesses to the birth. I am going to start searching records from 1790's per the link you sent me, I figured this may be a good year to start from in looking for Anders Johannessen, because I don't know the year he was born. I am basing it on Jacob's birth year. |
Leta O'Connor |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 20:10:30
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Hi,
in most elder christening records the mother isn´t mentioned.
An example:
It could have looked like this if Jacob Andersen was bornn 1790:
Anders Johannesens Søn Jacob, then comes the Godparents and sometimes completed (not common) with the mothers name as "intodused by a person as the mother of the child"
In this example it could have been like this:
NN introduserte moren Mari Johnsdatter.
NN introdused the mother Mari Johnsdatter.
The childs name is emphasized.
1790 would be a good year to start with, plus /minus 2 years (or more) isn´t unusual
Kåre |
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letaoconnor
Junior member
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 21:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
Hi,
in most elder christening records the mother isn´t mentioned.
An example:
It could have looked like this if Jacob Andersen was bornn 1790:
Anders Johannesens Søn Jacob, then comes the Godparents and sometimes completed (not common) with the mothers name as "intodused by a person as the mother of the child"
In this example it could have been like this:
NN introduserte moren Mari Johnsdatter.
NN introdused the mother Mari Johnsdatter.
The childs name is emphasized.
1790 would be a good year to start with, plus /minus 2 years (or more) isn´t unusual
Kåre
Kare,
Ok, I am not sure but I think I may have been lucky on this one. Hole 1766-1814, Birth and Bapt. Year 1793, Hole, Page 104,
Here was the link on my http line and I am not sure if this is how I get it to you, (I just copied and paste). If you don't mind, would you look at it to see if I found what I was looking for and help translate it. Thank you http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?show=108&uid=18088&urnread_imagesize=full&hode=nei&ls=1
Leta |
Leta O'Connor |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 22:49:23
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This could be be your Anders Johannesen, he is listed in 1801 census on farm Løcken as "Pleiebarn" fosterchild, so it looks like his parents was dead, his father Johannes Johannesen don´t exist in the 1801 cencus.
Anders was born on farm Afverøen.
His godparents:
Jørgen Lene/Lener, kona (his wife) Ingeborg, Ole Christensen?, Anne Marie Taraldsdatter, Ole Hunstad, Ole Hansen Hol??, Gulbrand Haavaldsen Kogsrud.
Kåre |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2007 : 23:48:26
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Leta - Here's how to share a link to one of the Digitalarkivet's scanned records -
When you've studied and used the instructions and been able to find a scanned page that you'd like to capture as a URL to share with someone else or save for your family history documentation - just copying the URL that your browser shows will NOT provide a working link.
Working direct links to the scanned images on the Digitalarkivet can be copied and pasted from the desired page from a display option available. At the top of the scanned image page is an option labeled "Bildeinformasjon:" [Norwegian version]/"Image Information"[English version] which is by default set to "Ingen" [Norwegian version]/"None" [English version]. Change that and magic is available. Of the three options I like "Øverst" [Norwegian version]/"On top" [English version] because it puts the additional information across the top of the page and is usually easier for me to see.
Copy either the permanent page link on the line "Permanent sidelenke:" [Norwegian version]/"Permanent pagelink" [English version] or the permanent image link "Permanent bildelenke:" [Norwegian version]/"Permanent imagelink" [English version] given. The permanent page link will bring the user to the exact same web page location, with source information displayed and with all the choices for viewing at ratios from 20 to 150%. The permanent image will display only a jpg image file with greatly more limited zoom capabilities.
The first line "Kildeinformasjon:" [Norwegian version]/"Source information" [English version] is a really nice summary of the source of the information and is wonderful to have for making detailed source citations, footnotes, etc.
The second line "Permanent sidelenke:" [Norwegian version]/"Permanent pagelink" [English version] is the best line to capture if you want to save or share the actual scanned image and the source information. It allows the full capabilities for zooming in and out to best view the image and informs the recipient of the exact location, book and other details to be able to find WHERE you found the information.
The third line "Permanent bildelenke:" [Norwegian version]/"Permanent imagelink" [English version] is the best used to print a copy of the image or to save a copy of the image in a jpg format computer file. This line does NOT also capture the source information and therefore is NOT the best line to copy to share online when requesting help or assistance in deciphering the image found.
Good information about translating the formats of Norwegian parish church records during various time periods, many of the basic terms used and understanding how to use the information should be studied at this web site -
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/na20.html
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letaoconnor
Junior member
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 00:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kåarto
This could be be your Anders Johannesen, he is listed in 1801 census on farm Løcken as "Pleiebarn" fosterchild, so it looks like his parents was dead, his father Johannes Johannesen don´t exist in the 1801 cencus.
Anders was born on farm Afverøen.
His godparents:
Jørgen Lene/Lener, kona (his wife) Ingeborg, Ole Christensen?, Anne Marie Taraldsdatter, Ole Hunstad, Ole Hansen Hol??, Gulbrand Haavaldsen Kogsrud.
Kåre
I also looked up the Anders Johannessen, that you sent in a previous message that you have found on the 1801 census records stating he was age 7. So I looked up the 1794 records and sure enough there is a birth record for an Anders on page 109.
http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?show=113&uid=22492&urnread_imagesize=full&hode=nei&ls=1
Hole 1766-1814
I have another question - back then were godparents considered family members, friend, church members or any of thees. I was thinking if I could link any of the other names as family members it could point me in the right direction of which of these could be right.
Again can not thank you enough for the information. |
Leta O'Connor |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 00:32:35
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That link didn't work either... see the above advice -- capture the middle line of the options available.
Right, the godparents/sponsors/witnesses might be any of those you mentioned. I've found that there is almost always one relative or more in the group - but some might be other people living on the same farm (neighbors and friends), etc.
But you are very very right - sometimes the names and farms in that list of godparents/sponsors/witnesses can give a real clue when the other information is a bit lacking. It sure can't hurt to give it a try.
If I have time this evening (yes, I'm in US too) I have a "hunch" that I want to spend some time on. |
Edited by - Hopkins on 27/10/2007 00:53:59 |
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letaoconnor
Junior member
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 01:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins
That link didn't work either... see the above advice -- capture the middle line of the options available.
Right, the godparents/sponsors/witnesses might be any of those you mentioned. I've found that there is almost always one relative or more in the group - but some might be other people living on the same farm (neighbors and friends), etc.
But you are very very right - sometimes the names and farms in that list of godparents/sponsors/witnesses can give a real clue when the other information is a bit lacking. It sure can't hurt to give it a try.
If I have time this evening (yes, I'm in US too) I have a "hunch" that I want to spend some time on.
Read a lot of the information from the roots web site. There is definitely good stuff listed. I am looking forward to your hunch. I will continue to look at the census records and birth records. I am also going to switch to the confirmation records. Thank for finding the ship names, I am going to try to find some pictures of them. |
Leta O'Connor |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 12:36:39
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OK - my hunch was to follow the info regarding widowed status of Anders Johannesen (1836 living on Hurum). Since he was also a soldier in 1836 I assume he'd be a young man. Two quite scant clues.
First I scanned through the Hole death records backwards from 1836 for fairly young married women living on Hurum. The first I noted was Kari Jacobsdtr, 29 yrs old, died about 19 June 1835 and two others that were 73 and 59 yrs old (those two I discounted). When the pages of the marriage records became quite out of order -- I gave up and cut short my search. (Weakness in my research)
So then I looked for Hole marriage records between an Anders Johannessen and a Kari Jacobsdtr earlier than 1835 (yes, I had my fingers crossed) -- located one such record in 5 Apr 1831 Anders Johannesen of Sørum something (21 yrs old) married Kari Jacobsdtr of Hurum (25 yrs old). Their "best men" were Truls Abrahamsen Lone?? and Nils Danma?????.
Marriage 5 Apr 1831
So this Anders Johannessen should be listed in births about 1810 - give or take a year or so....
There were a couple of possibilities - but the one I like most is Anders Johannesen baptised 10 Feb 1811 (the day called Septuagesima on the religious calendar that year) to Johannes Jansen or Jensen of Danemarki??? under Sørum and Anna Nielsdtr.
Anders Johannesen baptism
I can't promise this is "right on" but I offer it to you anyway. It is a possibility. It gives some reasoning for the child later being named Jacob. Anders was still living somewhere on the Hurum farm when the later child was born in the proximity of his "in-laws".
The only Johannes Jansen or Johannes Jensen in Hole for the 1801 census -
1801 census Hovind farm
His grandfather would have been an Anders and therefore some reason for him to later give a son the same name??? Possible, quite possible. |
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Hopkins
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3351 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 13:22:53
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IF the same Anders Johannesen (b. 1811) stayed on Hurum farm after the birth of son Jacob (b. 1836) then this is probably him entering second marriage -
Marriage 6 Jun 1845
It might be interesting to track the second wife and see if she is the same as was mentioned in the baptismal record of Jacob and if she might be a relative to the first wife. (My eyes are tired, I leave that to you.)
Another point of interest, is she still young enough at 42 to have children? Maybe something else to search for... |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 13:53:37
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Talking about the sun!
Page 109, top right, church book Hole 1766-1814 as you pointed out:
Johannes Andersen Svarstad S (Son). Anders. The record is completed with the mothers name:
M.Giertud Pedersd?----
introduseredes
The mother Giertrud Pedersd? was introdused.
It looks like the 1. Godmother is mother Giertrud´s sister Martha Pedersdatter Sø???(Sønsterud?) and 2. Godmother is the fathers sister Mari Andersdatter Nackerud (Nakkerud).
In the 1801 census Johannes last name is spelled Pedersen, a wrongspelling in one of the records?
But if Mari Andersdatter was Johannes sister the church book was correct and Anders Johannesen was as oldest son named after his fathers father Anders NN.
Or is this the record of the fostercild?
A bit confusing,
the local books named Bygdebok could perhaps give an answere to that, all four are online free to download in PDF, sorry but no English instruction.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 27/10/2007 17:06:08 |
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letaoconnor
Junior member
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 14:55:42
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How far back to military records go (if any)? If Anders was a soldier, and there are military records would they list where he was from or parents. I have not looked into this, but I loved your hunch, it was great and I will pursue it further. Also would church records show him leaving the church for awhile (just another thought)?
Again thank you for all of the information to digest. I wish I had old family member to throw this at, but I don't.
Leta |
Leta O'Connor |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2007 : 16:45:15
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The Military records for Hole, not online yet.
Kåre |
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Topic |
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Jakob and Mathea Anderson - Info needed
