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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
 Posted - 13/07/2008 : 00:54:24
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In your Post - 29/06/2008 : 05:43:45, you pointed me to the marriage record for Christian's parents Ole Madsen and Anne Nielsdatter, married: Febr 24 1786.
I can read this record, but I have a question on Ole Madsen's position listed in the record.
If I understand correctly, the U:K: stands for ungkarl (bachelor), but have not seen anything that tells me what the 'sold' means when it follows U K (U: K: Sold:).
Can you tell me what the 'Sold' means?
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 13/07/2008 : 07:20:32
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| "Sold" is an abreviation for soldat = soldier. |
Einar |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 13/07/2008 : 07:59:16
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Thank you, I believe I am having the most trouble with the abbreviations versus translations, as I go thru the records.
I have the baptism records for all of Ole Madsen and Anne Nielsdatter's children (married: Febr 24 1786), starting with Nils Olsen 14, (1787), Jorgen Olsen 11, (1789 ), David Olsen 9,(1792), Christian Olsen 6 (1795), Birte Olsdtr 3,(1798) all in the 1801 telling; and two born after the telling - Mari (1803); and Anne (1807).
For Christian and Mari, the mother's name is not Nielsdtr. Though the mod’s name is incorrectly listed as Anne Olsd., this is the only ‘Christian’ born (baptized) to Ole Madsen Knain. Christian is also recorded in the 1801 telling as the son of Ole Madsen and Ann Nielsdtr. No other Ole Madsen fathers, with children being baptized at this time in Hurdal, are found. With that as a given; the entry for the mother’s name as Anne Olsdt. on this baptism record I am attributing to clerical error for Christian's baptism record 1795, and for Mari, born 1803. Anne Nielsdtr. does not die until 1814, so this is not due to 2nd marriage.
If that is not what to do, I'm not sure next step?
Also, why would they skip naming their oldest after his father, and instead name after her father. Is there a reason when this is done, that you know of? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 13/07/2008 : 14:32:09
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Nils was baptized Febr 18 (Fastlavnssøndag = Sunday before Lent), Jørgen baptized Sept 20, David baptized Nov 4, Christian baptized Nov 1, Birte (actually Berthe) baptized Oct 7, Mari baptized June 19, and Anne born May 13, baptized May 24.
Since Annes mother was Anne Nielsdatter I think it is reasonable to say that she also was the mother of Christian and Mari attributing the Olsdatter to clerical error.
It is strange that none of the sons were a Mads, but again naming after the mothers father was not uncommon even though it was more normal to use a deceased first wifes father for a son in the second marriage (or the deceased wifes name if it was a girl).
You've probably seen that Ole Madsen died 1820.
No possibility to get Oles or Annes ancestors since the parish records were lost in a fire.
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 13/07/2008 15:35:46 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2008 : 01:00:25
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Thanks you for the date conversions, had not gotten to those. Felt it important to 'nail down' the mother of Christian, and make sure there were no other spouses of Ole Madsen.
I saw what appeared to be our Christian's baptism record in another family history. I think the confusion is coming from children born to a younger Ole Madsen, so took extra time looking at these records. That author did note, that naming conventions didn't seem to be followed. I sent him an e-mail telling him that I was pretty sure, this was our Christian, and that the names in our family did follow the conventions as would be expected.
I did find Ole Madsen being buried in 1820. But, I appreciate all look ups you do to confirm that I have correct records, and so much that you told me that parish records for Hurdal were lost in a fire. I would have been 'chasing my tail' trying to figure out why I wasn't finding any. It was next on my list to do for the parents of Ole. I see now, no parish books listed before 1777, in archives.
On this same farm Knain (Knajen), in the 1801 telling, Mads Olsen age 75, and his wife Berit Jornsdtr age 75, are listed as Huusbondens foraeldre and Mads reports Ernæres af huusbonden as Yrke, (for his living, he is a pensioner of the farm transfer I believe). They are living with his son Jorn Madsen, age 41, and wife Anne Christoffersdtr age 39, both in their first marriage and Jorn is Bonde og gaardbruger (owner of the land he farms). Naming would make Jorn Madsen the second son of Mads and Berit Jornsdtr. So possibly our Ole could be their eldest (age 48 in 1801), but the farm and the name 'Mads' stay with the farm, per the pension agreement.
Without parish records to confirm the possible relationship between Ole Madsen and Jorn Madsen, on the same farm, I know it is hard to say and only guessing. Maybe I can try to get hold of a farm book and see if it says anything.
Jorn Madsen and his kone Anne Christoffersdtr have the following children living with them in 1801: Marte Jørnsdtr age 15, Christoffer Jørnsen age 10, Birte Jørnsdtr age 2. But, I can only locate one baptism record for them, for children baptised in 1799. This is the year when there should have been a baptism for Birte. The record in 1799, page 82, looks like it says tvilling boy Mads and Birthe, and there is a cross in the date colum. I do find a death record for Mads Jørnsen age 6 days, in 1799, at Knaii.
Would you look at this one and confirm they were twins, and the cross means he died?
Lynes is residence of Anne Nielsd., in her marriage record to Ole Madsen. I find a Lyenæs, Ejdsvold - but no records for her born abt. 1760, & confirm later. This could mean many things. She could have been a servant there or not have been there long, or I have wrong Lynes. Do you know of anyway to back track where she came from? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2008 : 10:29:05
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quote:
I appreciate all look ups you do to confirm that I have correct records, and so much that you told me that parish records for Hurdal were lost in a fire. I would have been 'chasing my tail' trying to figure out why I wasn't finding any. It was next on my list to do for the parents of Ole. I see now, no parish books listed before 1777, in archives.
Before 1777 Hurdal parish was part of Eidsvoll parish and it was the records for Eidsvoll that were lost in a fire Jan 8 1877.
The baptism of Mads and Berthe was on Jan 26, they were twins (Twillinge Br. = Br. = børn - ie plural of barn) and Mads Jørnsen were burried June 9 1799. (6 days old seems strange)
Someone have done work back in 2001! see this
Does it contain new info - confirmation of what you already have? - use it with care and be aware of uncertainties. |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 15/07/2008 11:13:29 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 02:37:07
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Thank you for finding this.
I found, when trying to determine if our Christian was the right or wrong one (because he was being claimed in anther family history), that Ungkarl Christian Olsen, residence Rognstad, had a child Illegit, with Karen Olsdat: Isach, 1822, 09.07, baptized 14.07. They then marry, 1825, 03.02, residence is Rognstad & he is 29, witnesses Borger Gullichsen Rognstad & Hendrich Olsen Houg. They have a second child Ole, 1826, 25.07.
Akershus county, Hurdal, Parish register (official) nr. I 3 (1815-1828), Marriage records 1825, page 410-411.
In the other family history (not the one you referenced, but I think they are drawing from each other or some of same sources, I googled- Garsjø), and found this:
http://www.norhemian.com/15g2.html
In this history they list his name Kristen Olsen and that they know he was born before 01, Nov 1795 in Hurdal, Akershus. I can only find one other 'Christen' Olsen, who is about the right age in 1801 tell, and he might make better match for their and/or the family you found (as husband to Karen Olsdat). He is the son of Ole Christiansen & Johanne Steensdattr living Bratlie Priviligerede Saugbrug; Ole Christiansen & Johanne Steensdattr have children: Guldbrand 10, Christian 8, & Anne Marie 3, in 1801 - tell, and he is also a blacksmith & vandfør:
http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=39&filnamn=f10239&gardpostnr=29&personpostnr=885&merk=885#ovre
Christian Olsen with Karen Olsdat have children: illegit, Isach - 1822, Ole - 1826(parents on Kaine), Andreas - 1829, Karine -1834 (parents then living at Leiderud or Seiderud,) Anne Cathrine – 1839 (parents on Knain), Ingeborg Marie -1840, Olene Christiansen 1844. These children have some Knain sponsors, but many more Rognstad and some Houg folks.
I think they incorrectly are claiming our Christian, son of Anne Nielsd and Ole Madsen, as the husband of Karen Olsdat. The names are not a good match for grandparents, i.e., no Niels, Jorn, or Berthe.
I think I need more names of children from the marriage of Christian Olsen (28) Garsiøen and Sophie Erichsdatter (19), married in 1823, to help sort this out. Only know Carl and Elen, who Sophie is living with in 1865 census.
Would you look at the marriage record, I referenced above for Christian Olsen, residence Rognstad, with Karen Olsdat in 1822; and once again at the one for Christian Olson and Sophie Erichsdatter:
Akershus county, Aurskog, Parish register (official) nr. I 5 (1814-1829), Marriage records 1823, page 278. First ones for 1823.
Perhaps you can see something in the other columns, that would shed light on this, that I am missing? |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 07:47:30
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Did quick run thru parish records, Christian and Sophie had:
Ole 1825, Erich 1828, Ellen 1830, Olie 1833 (girl), Christian 1834, and Carl 1838.
Doesn't help much to nail it down, but nothing to rule them out and I still think a better match on names (than those for children of Christen and Karen) as descendants of Ole Madsen and Anne.
Will try to look for move in - move out records for Christian, and see if they say anything, after I get done with Drs appoints. Thanks again for all the help. You are a good trainer; I have learned a lot by following your leads. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 20:06:49
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I have done a look-up in the Hurdal bygdebok and found the following:
Ole Madsens parents were Mads Olsen and Birthe Jørgensdatter. They had the following children Ole, Nils, Jørgen, David, Margrete, Maren. Mads Olsen was using madsstua (Mads cottage) on Nordgardn of Knai from1762 until 1787 when he handed the farm over to Ole who used the farm from 1787 until 1798 when he sold it to his brother Jørgen. Ole then moved to Enga (another farm under Knai) which was not part of the sale to his brother.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find any info in the bygdebok regarding where Christian (Called Kristen in the book) ended up. (there was info on Nils and Jørgen moving to Oslo (Kristiania)) |
Einar |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 22:57:17
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Thank you so, so much for doing this lookup in the farm book! I was guessing the farm was transferred to the brother thru a sale that included a pension for the father, from what I saw in the census and know of naming conventions. You proved it, and have saved me so much time, not having to get the farm book and do translations (right now anyway).
I checked for Indflyttede record for Christian Olson to Aurskog, only located one who was the wrong age by abt. 4 years and coming from Holand. No help.
To summarize what I found in the records, that I went back and looked at again:
Christian Olsen, when he marries Sophie Erichsdtr, in February 1823 is 28. This agrees with the baptism record for Christian Olsen taken from the parish book, son of Mads Olsen and Anne Nielsdtr. The Christian who marries her had to be born in 1795.
The other Christian Olsen who marries Karen Olsdtr in Feb 1825, states age is 29, that makes him born in 1796.
One of my cousins, who plans to look further back for more information on the maternal side, (I've stayed on paternal line) suggested I look at the LDS site. I did and found where I think all the confusion is coming from. They have two Christian Olsen(s), one born 1795 and one born 1796, both with parents listed as Ole Madsen and Anne Nielsdtr. Makes things messy.
Based on correct birth/baptism date for Christian Olsen from parish books (1795), and age at marriage making him born (1795), I believe our Christian who marries Sophie to be the son of Ole Madsen and Anne Nielsdtr.; the other families claiming him - should be claiming the one who marries Karen Olsdtr., who was born in 1796. This Christian and Karen have children at many residences, not just Knaii and the children's sponsors are more from other farms. Naming of their children doesn't match up with Ole Madsen and Anne Nielsdtr. family either.
There was never a ? that the Sophie Erichsdtr was right person. The names for my grandmother and her sister fit as they should; middle names Sophie and Ellen, first names starting with C and O. Too bad naming of Sophie Ericksdtr and Christian Olsen children don't nail down parents better.
With that said, I believe that probably the rest of the history in what you found, going back for Ole Madsen (if taken from the farm book, is most likely correct). As you said "use with caution." But, nice someone else did all that work, for what I think is our Christian, not theirs.
Next for me I think is to find marriage and children of Carl's siblings, if I can. Might help to nail down things with their names.
My other question probably got buried in all the stuff. Would you look at the ‘remarks’ column for Christian Olsen (28) Garsiøen and Sophie Erichsdatter Østberger, age 19, married Febr 22, 1823, Aurskog, 1823, page 278, and decipher what it says in this column, I can’t make it out? It might give a hint. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 23:13:05
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| The remarks column is a note about vacination against smallcops. |
Einar |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 07:21:48
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Thank you again eibache, you have helped me so much. It didn't give a hint, but I feel better having asked - that I didn't miss something that might have been important.
For now will claim Christian, son of Ole and Anne as ours. The other item I made a note of, but didn't pass on yet, is that we have many twins in our line; there are twins in this Madsen family too.
Would you look at one more record and explain something for me. This is just something that I noticed (when I was browsing the parish records for the children of Christian and Sophie) in the baptism record for another male born in 1826.
Source information: Akershus county, Aurskog, Parish register (official) nr. I 5 (1814-1829), Birth and baptism records 1826, page 161-162.
Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7593&idx_id=7593&uid=ny&idx_side=-160
#35 , born 25th of July, Carl Johan, baptized the 10th of Sept., Parents: I think it says Capitain Frederich.
Under his given name is something I can’t make out that I have seen else where, in records for our family. I would like to know what it says or signifies when written under the given name, before I go back thru all the records and try to make some more sense out of my many notes? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 07:40:53
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It says "Hiemmedøpt" which means baptized at home, that is immediate after the birth. There is two remarks columns, one "Om og af hvem hjemmedøpt" (whether and by who baptized at home) and the other regarding who gave the info about children born out of wedlock.
The baptism at home were confirmed in church and many times the wording is a little bit different in the record for these children. |
Einar |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 22:18:22
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I have the guides to help with the column headings, but nothing that told me what writing under the given name meant. Your look up was appreciated.
Thank you again for the farm book lookup. It helped so much to clarify why the naming wasn't followed and the oldest son wasn't the land holder. Some information might be available if Hedom under Berger in Aurskog, is as well documented.
I'm going to stop gathering information for awhile and compile what I have. Have a couple of paragraphs that I need to translate, which also is slow going for me. But, I have learned doing so, helps me to recognize words as I check records.
Mother's cousin, Gertie, who I am doing this for, also took Norwegian in college (both went to Augsberg). But, she had difficulty with it, unlike mother she didn't grow up speaking it. Her naming also is not helpful (called after the pastor's wife). Do want to finish what I have and give her. Then I'll come back and research more. I find the history so interesting. It helps to tie together somethings I do know about the family.
During the 30s depression in the US, it was very difficult for my grandparents. They only had the one daughter - my mother, but he also helped his sister, who had been abandoned with 4 sons to raise. Somehow they scraped the money together to purchase cut 'glass set' from other in need at the time, because it was important to my grandmother.
The glass work (Hurdal) may have been what made it important. There is interesting stuff on the English who came to Hurdal to work in the glassworks, that I have found on line. Especially about a Nils, who married and resided on Knaii in 1801, too. There are evidently good records for the glass works, and so maybe also for the mill you told me about early on. But, that is for later research.
Again, I so appreciate everything you have helped to find. This is going to make Gertie very happy when I get done putting it together for her.
For now can you please tell me how you found the major work you reference done in 2001? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2008 : 12:02:07
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I've had a look at the Aurskog bygdebok and found that Sofies father Erik Christensen sold Berger østre in 1821. Sofie and Kristian Olsen was on Hedum vestre, a farm under Berger østre from 1828.
Erik Christensens parents were Christen Eriksen, Berger østre and Karie Asbjørnsdatter,Ilebek, they were married April 14 1771.
Christen was born Dec 13 1743, see bottom of left hand page here
his parents being Erik Olsen Halvorsrud and Anne Amundsdatter Mork.
Erik Olsen was born 1693 and his parents were Ole Gundersen Aamodt and Kari Eriksdatter Berger mellom.
Anne Amundsdatter was born 1702 and her parents were Amund Olsen and Lisbet Jensdatter at Mork mellom.
Karie Asbjørnsdatter was baptized Oct 13 1751, see
#3
her parents were Asbjørn Aslaksen and Ingerie Owesdatter.
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 20/07/2008 14:32:06 |
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Need information on Karoline Khristiansen b. 1838
