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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
 Posted - 20/07/2008 : 14:50:12
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Christen Eriksen and Karie Asbjørnsdatter were married April 14 1771, see right hand column here
they had the following children:
Helene 1772 (died 1773)
Anna 1774 (died 177)
Erik 1775
Amund 1777
Ole 1780
Ole 1781
Marthe 1784
Marthe 1786
Amund 1788
Gudmund 1792 (died 1792) and
Anders 1792 |
Einar |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 20/07/2008 : 15:03:14
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quote:
For now can you please tell me how you found the major work you reference done in 2001?
I just Googled Ole Madsen Knai! |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 20/07/2008 19:40:46 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2008 : 21:00:17
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Thank you again, I am overwhelmed to say the least with all the information.
I Googled Ole Madsen Knai as you did and found one more family history for their 5th child, Berthe, the next child after our Christian at:
http://mypages.allwest.com/~rognan/genealogy/index.htm#TOC
As you said, 'use with caution'.
If you should ever need a cemetery lookup in Dunn County Wis, let me know. I know all the Sextons. It is the only thing so far, I am good at helping others with.
My contractor came this morning to tell me he is starting kitchen floor shortly. While he is working, I won't have access to computer for awhile. If you should post something, that I don't acknowledge right away, that will be why. I have lots of notes to work on for when he kicks me out.
I'm excited now to get this put together for Gert, she didn't think I would be able to find anything with so little to start with. She was right, I wouldn't have, but you did & thank you again from both of us. |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2008 : 21:37:48
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I am still busy compiling & doing the citations for all of the data you gathered for me and what I added to it. I was lucky & found the family tree of one of the sisters of Carl Christian's mother (Kari Erichsdatter). I now know we have a Mormon branch as well and it further confirmed our findings for his maternal side.
I do have one question: in your original 13/07/2008 posting of info, in response to my request for help; you referenced the notation in the marriage record of, "miller Carl Christiansen". I understood the "miller" part of this to be his occupation in a sawmill. But, it could mean other things as well. From your experience, what would your intrepretation be?
I also would appreciate another lookup in the bygdebok for Carl's paternal line, if you would. The parish records going any further back then his grand parents were destroyed by fire, per your notation. The census and prior records you retrieved for me confirm the following three generations:
Carl's father was Christian Olsen Garsiøn
>Christian Olsen's father was Ole Madsen
>>Ole Madsen's father was Mads Olsen
It is the fourth generation back where there is confusion. Other histories which claim Mads Olsen, and list his father, might be in error. 1) I have him alive in the 1801 Census in Norway, they show him as deceased. 2) I have seem multiple places for his birth, including Denmark, with his name listed as Ole Marinus Madsen. If you could find anything to nail down the name of Mads Olsen's father and where he originated from, in the book, it would be a big help. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 13/11/2008 : 22:29:25
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From my posting 26/06/2008
quote:
Based on the limited info I think that Karoline Khristensen and Karl Khristiansen could be the miller Carl Christiansen and wife Caroline Christiansen, nee Knudsen who in 1867 had a daughter Regine Constance, born June 6 and baptized June 30
miller here is one working on a flour mill.
Your next question takes a bit more time! |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 13/11/2008 22:45:33 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2008 : 01:57:01
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Thank you, I wasn't sure if being a miller referred to milling flour or a saw mill worker.
When ever you have time on the other. I have much typing and citations to do on what I have gathered, so that I can get a first draft done for mother's cousin Gertie.
Thanks again for all the help! |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 14/11/2008 : 15:48:36
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quote:
I have done a look-up in the Hurdal bygdebok and found the following:
Ole Madsens parents were Mads Olsen and Birthe Jørgensdatter. They had the following children Ole, Nils, Jørgen, David, Margrete, Maren. Mads Olsen was using Madsstua (Mads cottage) on Nordgardn of Knai from1762 until 1787 when he handed the farm over to Ole who used the farm from 1787 until 1798 when he sold it to his brother Jørgen. Ole then moved to Enga (another farm under Knai) which was not part of the sale to his brother.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find any info in the bygdebok regarding where Christian (Called Kristen in the book) ended up. (there was info on Nils and Jørgen moving to Oslo (Kristiania))
Additional info from the bygdebok (borrowed in the local library):
Notice that Mads Olsen was the user of Madsstua 1762 - 1787, he did not die in 1787, as you say he was still alive in 1801. Mads came to Madsstua when he married Birte Jørgensdatter, who was the daughter of the former user Jørgen Olsen who was married to Goro Olsdatter. Birte had one sister Marte Jørgensdatter.
Jørgen Olsens parents were Ola Olsen and Suzanne Børgersdatter.
No info so far where Mads came from.
Should Ole Marinus Madsen be Mads Olsens father?
It is not very likely, but maybe interesting to notice that the pastor Mads Gram in Eidsvoll was in 1665 the owner of "bondegodset" - the farm Knai. If Mads should be a descendant, the pastor must have had a son Ole or Ola, and he again a son Mads who became a farmer. I don't have any indication that this should be facts.
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Einar |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 15/11/2008 : 08:06:32
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If you could not find anything in the book, to confirm the name I gave you, then I'm sure that once again I have found an inaccuracy in another tree. Couldn't really see the fellow traveling back to Denmark to die, in addition to the discrepancy with the Census records, as to his date of death.
Thank you once again. If I should find anything more which shed's light on the question, I'll post later. |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 17/11/2008 : 05:18:55
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Wanted to share with you information that came out of the following: document is in a family history originally submitted by sogn1 to SOGN GORDER KNUTSON BARKER MCMAHON on 2 Sep 2007.
http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=3348181&oid=0accf612-268e-4a75-892a-6b016b6757f6
This was personal research, some of which was done in Norway by the author and is quite detailed and extensive. Excerpt as follows:
"After the Knai holding had been divided into six holdings, the earliest known farmer of the Nordgaraard (North farm of Knai) was Ola Olsen who farmed this acreage from 1670 to 1729. His son Jorgen Olsen married Goro Oldsdatter, inherited the farm, and worked it from 1722-1762. Since Jorgen had no sons, the farm was given to his son-in-law Mads Olsen, who was married to Birte Jorgensdatter (datter of Jorgen). It is this Mads Olsen who is a character in Asbjornsen’s fairy tale “Berte Tuppenhaug”. Mads Olsen was also called Mads Knai.
The next owner of the farm was Ole Madsen, son of Mads Olsen and Birte. He sold the farm to Jorgen Madsen, his brother. Jorgen died in 1804, leaving his widow Anne Kristoffersdatter and seven children. It is the son Kristoffer, who through his daughter Marte became the ancestor of the later and present day Knais and Knains……….."
This doesn't shed any light on the origins of Mads, but it does clarify how ownership of the farm passed down to Ole and Jorgen. I was interested in determining that also.
Very interesting reading, just thought I'd share my finding.
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 17/11/2008 : 08:34:41
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quote:
"After the Knai holding had been divided into six holdings, the earliest known farmer of the Nordgaraard (North farm of Knai) was Ola Olsen who farmed this acreage from 1670 to 1729. he was married to Suzanne Børgersdatter, possibly from Ømark. their two sons, Jørgen and Nils, got half of the farm each, and they had two other sons David and Ola His son Jorgen Olsen married Goro Oldsdatter, inherited the farm, Madsstua and worked it from 1722-1762. Since Jorgen and Gor Olsdatter had no sons, they had two daughters, Marte and Birte the farm was given to his son-in-law Mads Olsen, who was married to Birte Jorgensdatter (datter of Jorgen). It is this Mads Olsen who is a character in Asbjornsen’s fairy tale “Berte Tuppenhaug”. Mads Olsen was also called Mads Knai.
Mads Olsen and Birte Jørgensdatter had these children: Ole, Nils, Jørgen, David, Margrete and Maren
The next owner of the farm Madsstua was Ole Madsen, son of Mads Olsen and Birte. he was married to Anne Nilsdatter He sold the farm to Jorgen Madsen, his brother. Jorgen died in 1804, leaving his widow Anne Kristoffersdatter and seven children. It is the son Kristoffer, who through his daughter Marte became the ancestor of the later and present day Nordgardn Knais and Knains ……….."
this is close to a copy of the Hurdal bygdebok. (added some of the info from the book) Knai was first, approx 1660, divided in Søgardn (southern farm) and Nordgardn (nothern farm).
Nordgardn was divided in Madsstua (Mads cottage), Jordet (the clean land), Arstun (the other cottage), Nystun (the new cottage), Bertelstua (Bertels cottage), Negardn (the lower farm). In addition there were 25 small farms from approx 1800. |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 17/11/2008 08:35:34 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 17/11/2008 : 22:52:31
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Your added infomation is in agreement with the work I cited, as well.
Also, out of same found this: "The Knain farm was (and still is) situated at the north end of Lake Hurdal. The name Knain is an old name and comes from two words, "vin" which meant "luxurious grasslands by a river" and "Kne" which came from the sharp curve like a knee ("kne" in Norwegian), that the river makes just north of the farm, as it flows into the lake. It is thought that the "vin" name dates back to pre-viking day (about 800 - 1050 A.D.)"
Loosely translated, 'excellent grass by the river, at the bend'.
I found these records, searching for the families of our Carl's siblings. Still need more confirmation, thru the names that our claim to this 'Christian' is correct. Looking better all the time, but nothing that nails it. Carl Johan was a significant name for these people & Carl's sister Elen has a son, Carl Johan. But, with that said I have yet to determine from where it comes; could be in-laws.
Again, Mange Tusen Takk, for your review of the data I found!
Asbornsen is noted 'as making fun of Mads Olsen, in Berte Tuppenhaug', but I can't find the work listed on line in his short story collections. Will try the library. In the meantime could you help with a translation of tuppenhaug? I'm evidently not taking it apart correct to find anything in my dictionary. |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 05:14:16
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Reference Librarian assisted; together we were not able to locate a hardcopy of his work, specifically including 'Berte Tuppenhaug'.
I had already ordered several of his short story collections that have been translated to English. Perhaps it will be included in them - though not found in the lookup/listings.
I did find it on-line in Norwegian, as 'Berthe Tuppenhaugs fortellinger':
http://runeberg.org/folkeven/018.html
But, the auto translator didn't work well on it. If other sources don't pan out. I'll find a translator.
Perhaps 'Tuppenhaugs' itself, is just another of the author's madeup names that are nonsense. That may be why I can't pick it apart to translate it & the auto translator fails too.
I have a copy, will address being able to read it later. Finding it was important, it now goes to the non-priority pile.
Don't need help on this after all, but thanks again for the confirmations out of the farm book, on the history I found.
The information in the history was 'priceless' , especially the section that told about Jorgen's death. Anne being a widow, her re-marriage, & how the farm passed out of the family thru her husband & then back into Jorgen's line again when her son's daughter (he had stayed on Knai as a tenant) married the Sheriff; and then her many marriages. The complexity of all of this would have been beyond my comprehension.
I should not complain about not being able to 'nail' down Christian Olsen as our Sophie's husband. From what i have read on history and in other posting, I know that I am very fortunate to come from these two lines of people who owned their land and pretty much stayed put, on the paternal side anyway. I'm even luckier personally, that I ended up with this side as my assignment. Perhaps a little rain was needed so as to appreciate the sunshine and have me dig deeper, or I wouldn't have found this. |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 06:15:20
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quote:
I did find it on-line in Norwegian, as 'Berthe Tuppenhaugs fortellinger':
Very interesting collection of Scandinavian litterature on the Internet. Doubtful if you find a translation of these tales. Berthe Tuppenhaug is an old women with speial talents to cure people with blessing and witchcraft. Mads Knai was her uncle and some of his happenings are described in Berthe Tuppenhaugs fortellinger. Tuppenhaug is the name of the cottar place where Berthe lived. Tuppen = the tip, Haug = hill.
Anybody trying to translate them will definitely have a challenge. |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 19/11/2008 06:18:23 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 19:42:23
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I’m going to try to purchase a copy of the Hurdal bygdebok, somewhat house bound & don’t get out often. Obtaining the bygdebok thru interlibrary loan, not a good option for me – where they can only be viewed for a short period of time at the library itself. A copy is held by a family locally in Strum, Wis (their line is mainly another area Hurdal family & I know they will not part with it). It was purchased on a trip to Norway. I am watching e-Bay; nothing so far.
Where Mads’ wife had only one sister, Marte Jorgensdtr, the niece in the fairy tale (if she is based on a real person also) would have been her child; else the child of a sibling of Mads. I may yet find from whence he hailed.
The synopsis you provided was so appreciated and the translation as well. Curiosity was killing me. I lament again, that my mother is not here to help and that I don’t have the trunk of ‘fancy needlework’ & old papers that burned in her house fire. The cousin Gertie does beautiful Rosmaling, but not so good with the language!
Another of Asbjornsen’s tales, (I think) is about an Aslaksen. Have one in our Berger line. His bibliography may provide more hints. I’ll update you if I find anything ‘solid’.
Mange Tusen Takk!
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2008 : 08:50:12
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I have had such a wonderful day, I must share. Gertie and I each had snatches of our oral history, picked up when the older folks would get together. We didn’t pick up much because they spoke in Norsk. Until today, there was nothing to connect the dots – so I did not include in the postings; it added no value.
1) Gertie knew only that we had familial ties to one of the Valley (Running Valley) Churches original founders. Running valley is just that: a valley that runs between two bluffs w/a small brook running thru it & Runnings people, who settled here early on. This congregation got into a snit, resulting in half of them building a new church across the road from the old one. Some of them going so far as to dig up their dead and rebury them. Now a hundred + years later, I have not been able to find a soul that can tell me what it was about. She didn’t know either, which of the two churches, had been the subject of their discussions.
2) I knew that there was a name change from Kristoffersen, to something shorter, in one of my lines. Did not know if it was paternal or maternal line.
3) I remembered the word ‘tuppen’, from my childhood, but didn’t have any idea what it meant & wasn’t able to translate it. Previously asked for help on this ‘elsewhere’ & drew a blank.
4) A family friend of my mother, Ruth, shared when they were doing their Memorial plantings-that Ruth said ‘her people were on the monument’ at Holden Church (where I attended). The monument recognizes two who were killed in the building of the Church and honors those who died later, due to their injuries. I am the only one in my family who attended this church. The original Valley Church burned down and wasn’t rebuilt until I had completed confirmation. She attended the Running Valley church, but planted at Holden because her Grundseth g-parents were there.
Gertie, had two ?s that she hoped we would find the answers to. Why did Jenny and her husband Ole, attend the Valley Church, when they lived right next to Holden? It is only 2 & ½ miles over the bluff, but must be reached by going in a circle around the bluff, 6-7 miles. She wanted to know how Jenny, working in a boarding house in Eau Claire Cty, could have met Ole, working in Dunn Cty & go to Ashland Cty to marry?
This morning when I was trying to help someone else, it occurred to me that I should check the census records a second time for the family (in Dunn, Colfax) that Ole Paulson lived with and worked for (only appears w/ them in 1880 census, when he first came to the US - learned this in his obit). Nothing jumped out at me when I first looked at that record.
This morning I looked again at records for this family, even though I knew he wasn’t going to appear with them. By 1905, the two elderly folks are living alone (Ole Larson and wife Berthe), by 1910 he is a widower alone. In 1870 census, before Ole joins them, I believe I found a familial connection for this family to Jenny’s line (patronymic naming). It would also provide the connection to the founders of the original Running Valley Church (he was one), and most likely explains how they met. Ole was working for her relatives.
These are the names of the children living at home, in 1870 with Ole and Bertha.
Lars Larson 23; Edward Larson 20; Josaphine Larson 15; Carl Larson 12; Oscar Larson 10; Caroline Larson 8; Martin Larson 5.
It is notable that they contain a 'Sophie', Carl, Oscar, & Caroline.
In the 1900 Census many Chrisofarsons are staying with Ole and Bertha Larson. These may be Kristoffersens they were gossiping about.
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1900usfedcen&rank=1&tips=0&gsfn=Ole&gsln=Larson&gsby=1824&gsb2co=5173%2cNorway&gsb2pl=1&gsd2co=2%2cUSA&gsd2pl=52%2cWisconsin&sbo=0&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=0&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=63206304&recoff=1+2
I could not avoid going out this morning, after finding these records; on my return trip I checked the cemeteries to make sure a friend had done favor and removed my pots. From the road, I noted all the Larson stones next to our Paulson ones at Running Valley. I have never made note of that before. At the Holden church as I was exiting, I glanced up at the monument I referenced and what was in front of my face, but the name Jorgen. I obtained a translation of the inscription after the monument was brought to my attention, but not having anyone to attach the record to – it went into the ‘bigga’ pile, and then forgotten until now.
Will have to climb back up this Larson line, after I get naturalization papers. Have faith that these people will provide connections to the dots for 1>3 of the oral history. And it is time to dig further into the first 'Jorgen', I have found a reference to.
My Grandpa Nels J. Selvig Grunseth, used to like to quote the saying, 'every act of kindness comes back a hundred fold'. I must have done a kindness, that I don't remember & it has returned to me this day.
Take care and have a wonderful weekend! |
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Need information on Karoline Khristiansen b. 1838
