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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
 Posted - 20/11/2008 : 11:43:24
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quote:
I’m going to try to purchase a copy of the Hurdal bygdebok, somewhat house bound & don’t get out often. Obtaining the bygdebok thru interlibrary loan, not a good option for me – where they can only be viewed for a short period of time at the library itself. A copy is held by a family locally in Strum, Wis (their line is mainly another area Hurdal family & I know they will not part with it). It was purchased on a trip to Norway. I am watching e-Bay; nothing so far.
It is available in Norway see Hurdal kommune
Send a mail to postmottak@hurdal.kommune.no
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 20/11/2008 11:45:01 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2008 : 19:08:50
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I never thought to ask, if it was in print? Goes to show, never assume anything. I'll will certainly make use of it!
Grandpa Nels, is on mother's paternal side and not a part of the line we're tracing here. His sister Anna, was a 'good witch'. She fortold the future for many and not vague things either . She predicted how her own children would die, and the business interests of Jenny's son Rudolph (while he was still keeping it a secret).
No more on that in this thread, but it is of interest to find a story about another 'witch' in the family. Still am looking for double crosses between the paternal and maternal lines for my mother's people.
Your information is more 'good furtune' for me.
Mange Tusen Takk!
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 21/11/2008 : 20:07:43
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Jenny's ggGranddaughters reviewing information wondered what I meant by looking for 'inbreeding', and look up for info on incest marriages.
Best I clarify for anyone else reading this. My looking for 'inbreeding', is as the term would be used in 'Animal Husbandry', not the 'crime of incest'.
In the selective breeding of animals, lines are often crossed back over themselves again and again, so as to obtain even better, the best traits. This works, but can back-fire to some extent, by doubling up on unwanted traits at the same time. Best examples, I can think of that many would know of: are hip problems in German Shepard dogs and too much bend/or too posty a leg in Holstein cattle.
The same thing can happen accidently, when the lines of people cross back over themselves. We have in this line a very complex auto-immune syndrome. Like Lupus, but not Lupus. I and my daughters are theorizing 'inbreeding' is contributing to our problem. Theory grew out of not so nice comments by my dad to mother about her family. He came from a father, who had lived on a mountain farm & his mother was Sami. This was at a time before the Sami had embraced and were proud of their culture. In other words, he thought they were a little 'uppity', and they did not exactly welcome him into the family either. Everyone in our family knows of this.
Until I began this research, we didn't understand the implications of farming on the mountainside versus the lowlands, and some of the other implications as well. I find my Sami blood to be the most interesting of my lines. But, it is now almost 50 years after these comments were made & much has changed.
An autopsy revealed that a female member (my g-mother) in this line, had resolved TB without ever being diagnosed and/or treated. Her immune system took care of the disease without help. The prevalence of other health issues, would indicate that this overactive immune system that allowed her to survive TB, may be a good thing. But, comes with some 'bad' too.
Nothing further on this needed/posting for clarification only. |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 25/12/2008 : 08:30:01
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To summarize again, the Jorgen, (who is the son of Ola Olsen & Suzanna Borgersen abt 1670 - daughter of Borger Svensen, Omirk, ? , Akershus, Norway), has two daughters Marte and Birte Jorgensdtr. He has no sons. Mads Olsen marries Birte Jorgensdtr & they have six children. The oldest of these children, our Ole - sells his interest in the farm (his birthright) to his younger brother Jorgen. After Jorgen dies.........we know the story. His 4th son, I believe is our Christian, father of Carl Christiansen born on Hedum.
It would be helpful, if you could assist me with a lookup in the farm book for our Christians' sister, the 5th child of Ole Madsen Knai and Anne Nielsdtr, Berthe Olsdtr born in 1798 in (Odemark?), Hurdallen, Norway. She was christened on 7 Oct 1798 in Hurdal Parish, Akershus, Norway. She married Erich Guldbrandsen Berget, on 14 Jul 1818 in Hurdal Parish, Akershus, Norway.
I am unsure as to where in the history, I found earlier, that they are getting the name Odemark?
http://mypages.allwest.com/~rognan/genealogy/index.htm#TOC
The rest is a match to what I already have, thru your assistance, and the other Sogn family history. Until I had time to really look at this, I was confused by the appended name. It is possible, once the family was no longer an owner on Knai, they could have adopted another 'surname', or are using the farmname of (Suzanna Borgersen abt 1670 - & her father Borger Svensen, Omirk, ? ), Akershus, Norway ?
I have not had a response as of yet to my request for a farm book. Any assistance on where the Odemark is coming from would be appreciated. There are members of this family relatively close to us that could be contacted; and I think that it would be worthwhile to do so, if the Odemark naming could be explained? |
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 25/12/2008 : 11:35:13
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quote:
It would be helpful, if you could assist me with a lookup in the farm book for our Christians' sister, the 5th child of Ole Madsen Knai and Anne Nielsdtr, Berthe Olsdtr born in 1798 in (Odemark?), Hurdallen, Norway. She was christened on 7 Oct 1798 in Hurdal Parish, Akershus, Norway. She married Erich Guldbrandsen Berget, on 14 Jul 1818 in Hurdal Parish, Akershus, Norway.
I'm not sure what you would like to have from the "farmbook". Her baptismal record is last record in the churchyear 1798 (on left hand page) and the record for her marriage is #14
she was married July 4, not 14, 1818. She then came from the farm Ødemark - most likely where the name Odemark comes from. |
Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 25/12/2008 11:38:11 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 26/12/2008 : 04:09:16
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Nothing out of the farmbook, thanks once again to you. Odemark was not listed in her baptism record & I did not view the marriage record; believed, that the references in the 'history' were correct & it would appear except for the date, that the history was. Where I was getting confused, was the appendage of Odemark to all of Berthe's siblings in this same history. Most especially - because you had already done a lookup that told us:
"Mads Olsen was using Madsstua (Mads cottage) on Nordgardn of Knai from1762 until 1787 when he handed the farm over to Ole who used the farm from 1787 until 1798, when he sold it to his brother Jørgen. Ole then moved to Enga (another farm under Knai) which was not part of the sale to his brother."
One way or another Berthe was coming from Odemark at the time of her wedding, but our Christian lists Garsion when he marries. I think I should just ignore for now, the appendage of Odemark to Berthe's sibling and accept that it is correct for her. That is exactly what I needed to know, Eibache. Thank you once again, for helping me sort things out. Don't know why it is taking so long to get an order in, for my book? Best, I try again. Hope your Xmas was wonderful!
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 20:24:18
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The reason I am tracing down the other two families (one descending from our Ole's sister Berthe & the other descending from his brother Jørgen), is that I am hopeful I can locate a relative willing to do mitochondrial DNA testing. Need proof, or will 'big red button' everything above Christian Olsen Garsjøen.
The Knain farms are really interesting. But, more important to me is the 'fairy tale' and possible ties to the Glass factory. Would so hate to lose them. My lines coming together, don't appear to 'get tangled up' from there down, so I make a good candidate for the test if I can find another to test against. Our last male member died on the 25th of April, 1972, without wife & or children. The two remaining branches of this family descend from his aunt Regina (the subject of this thread) and his sister Regina.
I don't think exhumation would be a cost effective option, so best to look for others willing to do a cheek swab. Berthe has much fewer descendants than Jørgen. Thru Jørgen's son's daughter Marte, there should be many possible contacts - close in proximity as well. I was hopeful that the other thread on the Knain farm might yield a candidate, but it doesn't appear so. I will let the researchers on this site decide, if it would be a good idea to direct her to this thread. I felt where she was just getting started, it might only confuse her.
Also, suppostion - believe that Lars Gulbrandsen and Marte Børgersdatter Knai, in the Knain farm thread, are the in-laws from the first marriage of Nils Knajen in the 1801 telling for Hurdal. Don't want to post that to the Knain farm thread, in case I'm wrong. If I am right, then that author just found a whole bunch fo Nilsen relatives with a fascinating background as well.
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=45&filnamn=f10239&gardpostnr=3&personpostnr=171&merk=171#ovre
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 05:57:56
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Eibache
After viewing the data in Marie Bertelsdatter´s parent's tree, someone else had added, I felt comfortable posting the 1801 Census info to the Knain thread. Too many correct persons names - to not be right. |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 05:42:26
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I have on good authority (direct descendant) that the wife (Johanne) of Kristoffer Jornsen Knaibakken was Johanne Olsdatter, born on the Tosterud Farm in 1787. She was the daughter of Ole Christensen and Marte Olsdatter. Ole Christensen was born 1751, died Mar. 31, 1813, and Marte Olsdatter was born 1751, died Nov. 20, 1828 of "Ikke af nogen Smitsom Syge." Both buried in Hurdal Parish and were shown in the 1801 Census:
http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=f18010239&gardpostnr=74&personpostnr=2027&merk=2027#ovre.
The naming also appears to be correct.
Located 'more' of the works of Peter Chr Asbjørnsen (translated) as follows: Folktales of Norway, by Reidar Thoralf Christiansen, Pat Shaw Iversen, Richard Mercer Dorson.
Translated by Pat Shaw Iversen
Edition: 2
Published by University of Chicago Press, 1968
ISBN 0226105105, 9780226105109
This body of work, includes the (translated) story titled: "The man who became Huldren". In the preface to the work, the authors state that 'Asbjornsen places this story in the mouth of a woman called Berte Tuppenhaug, although she was actually not his informant'. It begins "My Mother's brother, Mads..........."
On the supposition then, that the neice is the daughter of Mads Olsen's sister, perhaps it is possible to track his origins thru information provided on 'Berte Tuppenhaugin', in Wikipedia:
From Wikipedia, translated using Google translate:
BERTHE Niels Daughter Toppenhaug (born in 1764 in Gran, death December 22, 1840 in Gjerdrum) was a Norwegian folk medicines or sign witch. She was from husmannsplassen top Haugen under Hvaleby in Gran, but moved as an adult to Gjerdrum and lived in a place under the garden Fjellstad.
She is identical with the Berte Tuppen Haug / Peter Chr Asbjørnsen portrays in "Berte Tuppen Haugs stories" ........
Given the above information, could someone help me to trace her parents, per her birth and baptism in Gran in 1764?
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eibache
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
6495 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 08:20:16
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Ole Christensen Tosterud and Marte Olsdatter Bæchedahl married Nov 21 1779, see 3rd couple from bottom of right hand page.
Their daughter Johanne was baptized July 5 1789, see second record on left hand page
A Berthe was baptized Nov 11 1764, see 4th record from top of right hand page
her parents were Niels Tostensen and Berte Pedersdatter, Hwalebye.
Berte Nielsdatter in Gjerdrum in 1801
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Einar |
Edited by - eibache on 16/01/2009 08:56:33 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 14:52:20
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Perhaps you both know, if not.
Hurdal was before 1777 a sub parish in Eidsvoll parish, the church books were lost in a fire when Eidsvoll Vicarage burned down Jan. 8. 1877.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 16/01/2009 17:12:38 |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 15:58:36
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Thank you Kåre, that is the problem that Eibache has been trying to help me work thru.
There is no record, due to the fire, of 'our' Christian Olsen, son of Ole Madsen and grandson of Mads Olsen, moving to marry. He (Christian Olsen Garsiøen) married Sophie Erichsdatter, on 22 Feb, 1823, in Aurskog. I can prove to my own satisfaction that other family trees claiming him are doing so in error due to naming conventions not being followed. But, there is no way to prove out that he belongs to our line other than a DNA test (that I can identify).
In order to do a DNA test, it was necessary to determine that the 'feet didn't tangle' above or below Birte Jorgensdatter, the wife of Mads Olsen, and Christian's grandmother.
Based on the information Eibache just obtained for me, I think it is safe to say that is true; and a test for maternal DNA (involving a descendant of Christian Olsen Garsiøen and Kristoffer Jornsen Knaibakken, who were first cousins) would not yield a false positive to est this lineage. They have in common the maternal grandmother Birte Jorgensdatter and no other linked female relatives to her.
Thank you again Eibache. I tried to view the parish records for Gran, but couldn't make out anything in them. If Mads was a brother to Berte Pedersdatter, then they were half siblings with different fathers. For now, I'm not going to dig any further into his line.
I was more interested in determining the parents of Kristoffer Jornsen Knaibakken's wife Johanne. That done, I'd now feel pretty comfortable with a positive test result, being a 'true' positive. Now, I just need to find a candidate to do the test with me.
I did finally receive a response for my request for Hurdal bygdebok; interesting that the responder was a Knai.
Thanks again Eibache!
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 18:10:33
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Still it should be a lot of information collected from probate registers, taxpayers, farm register, military records, court cases etc, all collected in volume 1 - 2 from Hurdal bygdebok
I came across this family tree contain Ole Kristensen Tosterud and Marthe Olsdr. Bækkedal, here, e-mail the owner, picture of his family further down, and ask for add. information.
Kåre |
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crymisty
Medium member
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2009 : 23:52:10
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Thank you Kåre. It would seem that you located the tree for Kristoffer Jornsen Knaibakken's wife's sister, Anne (born 1784), and a Nils Madsen Knai. I will ask, if they have additional information to share. They list him as the son of Mads Olsen, but without a b.d. The Nils, son of Mads Olsen would be a little old (born 1755) for Anne born, 1784; but, perhaps not.
I have requested/ordered (Hurdal bygdebok) - but, until it comes - the only digging I could do, was research on the neice of Mads Olsen and Johanne's parents. Thanks to both of you for your help, I'm very happy with finding out what I have in the process.
I discussed previously with Eibache, that records at Garsiøen and/or records for Hedom under Bergh in Arskog might also yield data. Long way from giving up. Nailed what I could, while waiting for my 'books'.
If the opportunity presents to do the test, I would now be very comfortable with results; & I have two more extended family lines to include for mother's cousin as well. She is amazed (mid 80s) at the amount of information you have all helped me to gather. Back to data entry again for awhile / not my favorite part of the job. |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2009 : 00:50:16
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Garsiøen, todays Garsjøen by the old road between Oslo and Trondheim was from 1795-1895 a "station" where travellers could stop for food and a sleep is a museum today with 1200 objects and 1000 pictures.
Furter down is Knai summer pasture (16 houses and barns)
If Knaihaugen was one of the farms using this pasture in the summer time I dont know.
More from Garsjøen by Fred Matson (Madsen?) including several interesting links for the lady in the mid 80s.
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 17/01/2009 10:35:02 |
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Need information on Karoline Khristiansen b. 1838
