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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
 Posted - 16/02/2014 : 23:47:19
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quote:
Jane what was John Johannsen's occupations in the various censuses?
Wheelright
Sorry left off the w, it is wheelwright. makes and repairs wooden wheels.
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Edited by - AntonH on 17/02/2014 04:04:31 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 00:17:09
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| Could a wheelwright ever be considered to be a machinist? |
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 03:03:46
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| About wheelwrights and machinists, well, archaic and foreign job titles are tricky to understand, and I really have no idea, but yes I'd guess that if a man is trained as a machinist (skilled in running machines that make or repair things) then the skills would translate to work as a wheelwright. |
Edited by - JaneC on 22/02/2014 02:02:19 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 04:11:09
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quote:
John Johannsen was indeed born in Louisiana you'd think he'd appear in the families of these people in either the 1870 listing or the 1880 listing. And for the 52 year old John Johannsen who died on 23 Aug 1882 you'd think he'd be counted also. So where are they?
Also Where is John and Emma in the 1900 Census. There are good records for the birth of three children in the post by JaneC for John, Carrie, and Laura, so they should be in the 1900 Census and most likely in New Orleans, but not yet findable any where much less Lousiana? |
Edited by - AntonH on 17/02/2014 04:11:38 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 05:26:04
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A potential arriving in 1871. Occupaton is Potter. Even tho is coming from Hamburg he is with a large group of people who for the question "Country to which they belong" the answer is Norway.
New Orleans, Passenger Lists, 1813-1945
Name: Johann Johannsen
Arrival Date: 23 Dec 1871
Port of Arrival: New Orleans, Louisiana
Birth Date: abt 1831
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Hamburg, Germany
Ship Name: Vandalia
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Edited by - AntonH on 17/02/2014 05:55:46 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 05:34:00
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| Anybody with him? |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 05:46:05
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Yes his wife, Whoops ignore this, wrong person in the original manifest, NO, no one with him and he is not a carpenter but rather a potter.
New Orleans, Passenger Lists, 1813-1945
Name: Janette Johnsdatter
Arrival Date: 23 Dec 1871
Port of Arrival: New Orleans, Louisiana
Birth Date: abt 1835
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Port of Departure: Hamburg, Germany
Ship Name: Vandalia |
Edited by - AntonH on 17/02/2014 05:52:50 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 06:04:21
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Probably him leaving Hamburg, note his original residence.
Hamburger Passagierlisten, 1850-1934
Name: Johann Franz Johannsen
Departure Date: 25 Nov 1871
Destination: Galveston, Texas
Birth Date: abt 1831
Age: 40
Gender: männlich (Male)
Residence: Christiania, Norwegen (Norway)
Occupation: Töpfer
Ship Name: Vandalia
Captain: Franzen
Shipping line: Hamburg-Amerikanische Packetfahrt-Actien-Gesellschaft
Shipping Clerk: Aug. Bolten Wm. Miller`s Nachfolger
Ship Type: Dampfschiff
Accommodation: Zwischendeck
Ship Flag: Deutschland
Port of Departure: Hamburg
Port of Arrival: Havre; Havana; New Orleans
Volume: 373-7 I, VIII A 1 Band 025
Household Members:
Name Age
Johann Franz Johannsen
40 |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
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AntonH
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
9301 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 06:32:53
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Three candidates, how to tell them apart?
Name: Johan Johannesson
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 21 jun 1831
Baptism Date: 21 jun 1831
Baptism Place: Hjo, Skaraborg, Sweden
Mother's Age: 35
Father: Johannes Jansson
Mother: Maria Jansdott
Name: Johan Johannesson
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 19 apr 1831
Birth Place: Rolösa
Baptism Date: 20 apr 1831
Baptism Place: Södra Fågelås, Skaraborg, Sweden
Father: Johannes Svensson
Mother: Stina Pehrsdotter
Name: Johan Johannesson
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 6 sep 1831
Birth Place: Ransberg, Skaraborg, Sweden
Baptism Date: 8 sep 1831
Baptism Place: Ransberg, Skaraborg, Sweden
Mother's Age: 27
Father: Johannes Olofsson
Mother: Maria Larsdotter |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 10:24:14
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Hi.
Confused:
I wonder if I`ve fallen of the wagon and hit my head 
We are still looking for John Johannsen b. ca 1830 in Norway who died in Lousiana 1882, married to a girl b. in Germany ?
Who is Johan M. Johansen age 24 who em. from Oslo to New Orleans 1894
Kåre |
Edited by - Kåarto on 17/02/2014 13:55:52 |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 13:56:50
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If such a person were findable, we'd already have him!
To me, it defies description that a human or group of humans could be missing from 3 censuses in a row and then turn up as if they had never been gone. The original poster may have further information on other records of the "son" John Jurgen Johannsen, but she has not come back yet.
Frankly, every possibility should be on the table. So what's the most likely?
1. Name change!
2. Incorrect facts or assumptions
3. Purposeful mistatement
4. Variability introduced in record base by failed comprehension
The John Johansen coming to New Orleans from Norway in 1894 was found in an attempt to find other Johannsen coming to New Orleans perhaps to visit relatives. He is interesting since the bulk of record on John Jurgen Johannsen in New Orleans begins about 1894. Even though in censuses 1910-1940 his birthplace is given as Louisiana, there are numerous scenarios in which a person may be born one place but grow up and live in another.
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JaneC
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
3020 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 14:41:19
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Yes Kåre, if John/Jurgen Johannsen is born in New Orleans about 1869, then he should be in the 1870 and 1880 census there, or maybe it could be a mistake and he's born a little after 1870, but then he should be at least in the 1880 census. Yet as you can see, considerable searching does not turn him up.
If the original facts stated are not correct, then some other story applies, and jkmarler and lyndal40 are exploring the other options. One of which is the possibility that the Johannssen family may have used a different surname in the early years. The father could be Johan/Johannes XXX, and since the son is Johannssen, the father gets the name attached to him (when he is buried at least). If he emigrated after the son and as an older person this especially could be the case. Thus it's worth looking at other surnames in 1870 and 1880.
This line of thinking leads to the possibility it is the son John/Jurgen who emigrated, not the father, and thus the emigration possibilities for a John/Jurgen born about 1869 and going to New Orleans.
Here are some facts from the opening statement that need more explanation.
from the opening query:
"...my great grandfather, John/Jurgen Johannsen ... was born and lived his whole life in New Orleans, Louisiana, and married Emma Wiegel."
This is the individual B knows best. but does not say more about him. A source is needed: where is this information found, how does B know this? We found his marriage - but not his birth.
"I am looking to find more information about my great great grandfather" - this would be John/Jurgen Johannsen's father.
"...who emigrated from Norway."
Again, what is the source, that he actually emigrated? If John/Jurgen was born in New Orleans, we could guess his father emigrated to the USA, but that does not necessarily have to be true. It is highly likely true (if the bit about John/Jurgen being born in New Orleans is true); but still, knowing the source of that statement would help the forum to assess the credibility of all this.
"His death certificate from Louisiana says his name was John Johannsen,"
Does this mean John/Jurgen's father's death certificate? How do we know John/Jurgen's father is "John Johannsen"? How do we know this death certificate is the father of John/Jurgen?
Or maybe the reference is to Jurgen/John's death certificate.
"He was born about 1830 Norway and died in Louisiana on Aug. 23, 1882."
This might be no more than speculation (we cannot be sure). I think maybe B. found a death record that might be "her" John/Jurgen's father, and she is stating the facts on that death certificate, not the facts about the father.
So that is a true representation of a death certificate, but the name, the birth year, and the death date and place are only as accurate as the identification of the death record, and we don't know how or why this death record was chosen.
It may be correct that John/Jurgen's father is John Johannssen and he died 1882, but it seems to me the only credible evidence we have uncovered in that regard is his burial in the "Budinich plot" in Greenwood cemetery, and the son John/Jurgen worked with "M Bucinich" (see earlier posting). "M Budinich" is probably Mateo Budinich, who married Rosa, and they are also buried in the "Budinich Plot." Like John/Jurgen, Mateo worked for the New Orleans Sewage and Water Board. I've tried to search for online records/history of the board but have not come up with anything more than Jackie posted.
John/Jurgen could buy a cemetery plot to bury his father, and for the family, and later they decide they won't use it, so he sells the space to Mateo and Rosa - or Mateo and Rosa buy this plot (but why would they own it already in 1882?) and allow the burial of John/Jurgen's father there. Or....we can make up other stories about what maybe happened. This burial plot and the fact that John/Jurgen worked with Mateo Budinich is the only slim thread this forum has found between John/Jurgen the son and John Johannssen the father. I can well believe there is a family story regarding this - and we would be interested to hear it.
"I do not know who he married except for census records that say she was from Germany."
Census records do not ask what country his wife is from, unless she is living and she is also enumerated, in which case Bethany would know her name. Therefore Bethany is referring to census records for the son, John/Jurgen. The census DOES ask about his parents, and we have the 1910 census onward to show his father b Norway and mother b Germany.
What census records do you have Bethany have? Have you found the 1870, 1880, and 1900 census for anyone in this family?
Sometimes a family member has records we can't get easily online - she has hand searched records by going to a place (a library or other archives, a courthouse, a church, etc), or she has been given family records from parents and grandparents.
]In other words, Bethany, please state your sources for each fact. For example, why do you say Jurgen/John Johannssen was "born in New Orleans and lived all his life there." How do you know that, where did you read it or how did you hear it?
It's the forum's prerogative to search despite the contradictions between the query and the records found, but it is not an ideal way to proceed. Better for the Original Poster to return and explain. |
Edited by - JaneC on 22/02/2014 02:21:47 |
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Kåarto
Norway Heritage Veteran
Norway
5861 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 15:05:56
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Thanks for the explonation, it was easier to understand in one summary.
The information Bethany gave, I wonder if it is based on oral or written family sources.
On internet there are lots of mistakes and errors in genealogy.
Kåre |
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jkmarler
Norway Heritage Veteran
USA
7790 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2014 : 16:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by JaneC
And by the way, I see a problem with the logic in my post. Is the man who worked for the Sewage and Water Board the same as the man who is Bethany's great-grandfather? That is another thing we would like to know, especially since that work history is our only tie to the "Budinich Plot." Need to double check the occupation listed in 1930 and 1940 census. The man at the Sewage Board (retiring in 1944) is seemingly the right age.
Jackie did you say John/Jurgen died 1927 in California? Or was that his son.
It is John /Jurgen's son John b. 1894-1896 in New Orleans who dies in California in 1927 yet he has a listing in the Louisiana death search engine. That's curious, too. He had lived in California from about 1923-1927. During the 1st World War he served in the Navy apparently in the submarine corps. He is also mentioned as having been employed at the Times-Picayune newspaper (an assistant to a photographer working for the paper) and also on the sewerage board. Ironic that he died by drowning in the surf near Los Angeles. It was in his obituary that there was the line about the Grace, Idaho papers to copy. That's why I want to know who knew him in Grace Idaho--especially if it was a relative. So far in the 1920 or 1930 censuses at familysearch found no one born in Louisiana living in Caribou county there, so its a mystery.
The Metairie cemetery is where John d.1927 is buried yet there are no Johannsen listings of the 17000 or so burials at the Metairie cemetery at findagrave. Another mystery.
Rosa Bucinich's second husband was Matt__ Bucinich. She had adult children living with them in one of the censuses either 1900 or 1910 whose last names were Lovretich. |
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Johannsen - male born 1830 Norway died 1882 Louisi
